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Peer Effect
Best way to scale? Your peers have the answers.
This is the podcast for scaleup founders looking for insightful, actionable wisdom from some of the best operators around. Each week we’ll explore one secret that other founders and experts are using right now and how to implement it.
It’s practical wisdom to build the company AND life you want. Hosted by renowned founder coach and advisor James Johnson.
You’ve survived to £1m, now let’s scale to £10m+.
Peer Effect
Why Some Underperforming Team Members Can Never Be Fixed
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James Johnson and Freddie Birley take on a listener question this week: what to do when you're wasting energy being frustrated with your team.
They land on a distinction between two types of underperformer that most founders have never separated out, and why treating them the same is quietly pushing your best people towards the door. Stop guessing which conversation you actually need to have.
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Welcome to the Peer Effect Post Bag. I'm James Johnson, joined by Freddie Burley. We ask for your questions, and Freddie and I are going to tackle them together. These aren't theoretical case studies, it's the stuff keeping you up at 2 a.m. Let's get answering. Welcome to the Peer Effect post bag. I'm James Johnson.
SPEAKER_01I'm Freddie Burley. So how has your week been? It's been good.
SPEAKER_02It's been good. I've I've leaned into realizing like don't say yes. Don't say yes. It's kind of the opposite of that Jim Carrey film. Just wondering no. But but seriously, I I think particularly as a coach, it can be tempting to say yes to everyone. Yeah. But I suppose doing what we do, you you can sort of help everyone to a degree. My realisation is like if I don't protect my time better, that has impact on something.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, everything has trade-offs. So true.
SPEAKER_02Like saying yes, I mean it's a bit true. If saying yes to one thing is saying no to something else, so just get ahead of it. Even if it's just creating space to like read more or exercise, it doesn't you have to be saying a yes, a no to a work thing to create space to more work. But just being a bit more conscious of when I'm saying yes has been my has been my takeaway from this week.
SPEAKER_01I almost feel like every six months we kind of need a bit of a race out on that because I feel like sometimes the things you used to say yes to, you just you're in default mode of saying yes to, and you actually realize I don't enjoy doing this, I don't create impact in it, or it doesn't resonate anymore, and I just need to let it go to create a bit more space for things that we're like heading more towards where I'm going than where I've been.
SPEAKER_02It's the idea of a to don't list, which I which I quite like. We always create to do list, but just we need to create space. Like I think just periodically creating space and seeing and being okay with that and just being okay to have space and see what comes from it. Totally. I think is really powerful. And I think some of it feels like we have to be busy. Yeah. And if we have space, we have to say yes to stuff to fill it up. And actually, it's okay to say no to something and protect that space if it's something that you don't feel is is going to be helpful.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I literally couldn't agree more. And what I've often found to be true as well is that when I create space, it I don't know whether it's some kind of universal glitch or something, but magical opportunities show up, uh kind of more spontaneous, and I feel like an immediate, like, yes, I would love to do that. Then it becomes obvious what I want to fill the space with. But I sometimes I don't know. It's like, is it just that when I'm in kind of when I'm my diary is absolutely packed and I'm kind of heads down, I'm just not open to those kinds of things. I don't notice them, or when they come up, I'm like, it's not priority, I don't have time for that. Whereas when you do create the space, it's it's amazing what kind of floods in, or yeah.
SPEAKER_02Question from Neil. I'm wasting a lot of energy getting frustrated at my team. How do I shift this?
SPEAKER_01I think this is a question that all human beings can check themselves on in many ways. When we're getting frustrated at people, I often just see it as a um a kind of mirror to be like something needs to change. And uh when challenges like frustrating team members or family members or people show up in our life, I often see them as mirrors or kind of opportunities to grow in how we communicate, how we set boundaries, how we share expectations. It's interesting because as humans, when when challenges show up, often I see kind of three core, three ways of approaching it. The first is often total avoidance. So a challenge shows up and we kind of pretend it's not going on and we just avoid it, and it ends up being almost like an open tab in our mind that we think we're avoiding it, but actually we're expending energy subconsciously because it's just running rent-free in our heads. Second posture is around that we fight it. So we we it shows up, but we wish it hadn't. We complain about it. We kind of are we are taking action, but we're really begrudgingly taking action, which also takes up a lot of it's like negative energy in our body and it doesn't feel good. And the third posture is like fully embracing it. And I think to get to a point where we can fully embrace a challenge, it's like, is this for me or not? Like, can I actually get rid of this? So the more like the opposite of avoidance could be like you could delegate it, you could drop it. Is there something I can get rid of if I feel negative about it? And if the answer is no, then we kind of want to shift from fighting to embracing so that we can get the most out of what it's trying to teach us as well. And when it comes to team members, I often think like the frustrating part is that we're not communicating our expectations explicitly enough. And so we're almost frustrated at ourselves for people not being able to read our minds and do exactly what we want them to do. And so the first the kind of stretch in it can be like, okay, have I communicated my expectations explicitly? Then have I said like what worked, what didn't with the person too? So there's a sense of communication. If I have communicated my expectations clearly, I am giving feedback in a constructive way and having a conversation with the person around it and they're still not changing, then if if it's a team member, like you go into like performance management mode where you're like, okay, after I I often think about it in threes, but it's like you you make sure your communications are explicit to the point that you write it down. Because often we think we're being really explicit and actually we're kind of vague and going around the subject. So you get it written down, everyone's on the same page, then you have a way of like following up. And if they're still, you follow up and they still haven't got it, you talk to them again. If they still haven't got it, then by the third conversation, it's like if this doesn't change, this isn't going to be sustainable, like moving forwards or or in the future. And then in terms of actually once you've done the controllables, the thing that's out of your control is like their perception, their behavior, how what they actually do. And if they're not adapting and you're doing everything in your control, like wholeheartedly and fully, and we know when we're doing that, it's it's often more of a feeling of like, am I avoiding things? Am I actually leaning into this? Then you ask yourself the question, like, if I don't want to feel frustrated and I want to feel okay, I have to be like, How is this benefiting me? Because subconsciously we fight when we perceive something's not benefiting us or it's happening to us and not for us. And so the only way to fully embrace it is to be like, if I trusted this was the exact challenge I needed in order to grow as a human being, as a leader, as a founder, what is this human a vehicle for in my life? Like, how is this human teaching me things implicitly and how I'm growing in my communication, how I'm growing in my management, how I'm growing in my boundaries, how I'm growing in my awareness of what I want and what I don't want, or what my culture could be like, or what I want my there's so many. I often think our challenges teach us way more than our wins, and it can be really clarifying for what we do and don't want. So there are a few, there are a few things in there, but to summarize trying to shift from like avoidance of challenge and into embracing challenge, um, really doubling down bravely on your controllables and then letting go of what's out of your control by exploring, okay, how does this challenge benefit me so that you can lean into it more fully?
SPEAKER_02I think one thing I would chime on there is this idea that that frustration can be, you fully haven't done what you needed to do in order to hold someone accountable. And because then it's kind of like the situation, like, oh, I'm extending probation, or I'm like, I can't they're working so hard, I can't possibly have that conversation with them. And it's kind of you're not giving yourself permission to have the conversation, but you also know you haven't done everything to like frame it, frame it and get rid of the excuses and just like you you've left too many excuses to bubble around. Yeah. And I think if you can cut those out, so you go, I feel I've done everything I can, then it's like, what is it the other person is is is not doing having that conversation.
SPEAKER_01And what I often find is once you get the once you start communicating well, the outcome accelerates. So either the person is like, I can't fulfill those expectations, and then the outcome becomes obvious. Or um they they have an opportunity to change because they're like, oh, okay, you've you've now kind of challenged me. And it's like I see you and I raise you. I'm I'm gonna meet you in that challenge, I'm gonna grow, I'm gonna focus on the things that that and you kind of give them the opportunity to grow if they want to, and if they don't want to, then it's not gonna work. So you just you accelerate, um, you accelerate the outcome.
SPEAKER_02And the other thing I've I would look at there is like, what is it that's frustrating you? Is it behavior, is it performance? Because I think that frustrated their different frustrations. That's a really great point. It's very much if you've got someone who's kind of frustrating from a behavioral perspective, but they're getting performance, I'd call them performing saboteur. And that's kind of that is you have different types of them, but either something who's inconsistent in what they're giving you or their behavior is just they're not very reliable generally. And that can be frustrating. Like you have the seductive mirage of them at their best, and it's like, why can't I get this all the time? Or why can't I get this without the negative externalities of their behavior which are affecting the team? That's frustrating. But then you can have people who aren't giving you performance but are giving you the behavior, and it's like, oh, they're so reliable, they're such great people, and I'd call them like protected species because you just want to protect them as much as you possibly can.
SPEAKER_01That's so great. That's such great language.
SPEAKER_02And it's just like, oh, if only they could do, I'm I'm just oh, I just want to give them another chance. And the problem is they may not have the competency to do fundamentally what you're asking them to do, and it's not they're not willing to try, it's not that they're a cultural fit, it's just that they can't do it. And I think for them, it's about maybe shifting role. And if if you can't find the right role for them, maybe you don't have the space in your company, and that's and just acknowledging that. But I I find those people can stay in a company for years because like managers change, the next manager gives them a chance. It's kind of just a sense of like, oh I can help me get there. It's like, no, you can't because they're great, but they're not great for this role.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's the difference between the sort of the family mentality versus the high performing team mentality. And in a high performing, you need like culture fit and performance fit. Because also it can be demotivating for the team and not cultivate the kinds of behaviours you you want to see to win.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think most fans they're there to win. They're not, it's it's important that people are high performing and they're focused and they're like in it, two feet in, and you're and you're inspired by your colleagues. You're like, wow, they're doing an amazing job. And it creates that sense of I also want to be doing an amazing job.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think something you point you made in a previous episode, Sadia, that I think people choose to work for startups or scale-ups for a reason. Like they're they're going to with their eyes open, and it's like that it is higher jeopardy because you know that you might not get a fundraising around, it might not work. It's like it's it's not a safe nine to five like some bigger businesses. But there is the opportunity for outside performance and outside opportunity. And if you're there for that and you have colleagues around you who are not performing or behaving, and that is allowed, but I think you're kind of you sense of I'm really good, I've made this choice, but we're not giving ourselves the best chance of success here. I may not be in for that. Yeah. In which case, your good people are gonna leave. So if you're feeling frustrated as the founder, I'm curious how your your top performers are feeling as well.
SPEAKER_01And that's it. The the mindset of like high risk, high reward is also high growth. And so the kinds of humans that are gonna be the right fit are gonna be motivated by high growth. Even if the company fails, that kind of mindset of high growth means they're gonna be two feet in, which means they're gonna be focused, which means they're gonna be um generative. And the the kind of good culture fit, but low productivity, mindset-wise, also just isn't the right fit for startups. That that gives me more like corporate vibes, you know, not startup energy.
SPEAKER_02But but I I I think going back to the point you made at the beginning, I do think this does start with you as the leader. Are you are you being a no excuses leader? Yeah. Are you removing those excuses? Are you holding people accountable? Have you had the conversation?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're in the driver's seat. It's like, are you in the driver's seat? Are you like willing to grow? Are you willing to do the uncomfortable things, have the hard conversations because growth is more important than comfort? And um yeah, what are you taking away?
SPEAKER_02I think listen listen to that sense of frustration. Like if you are feeling frustrated, what is it that's causing you that frustration? And just to start with yourself and go, okay, have I done everything that I can to allow myself to hold people accountable and have the conversations that I need to have? Because if you haven't, then you're kind of getting like you're you're wasting a lot of energy being frustrated.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're leaving stuff on the table. Yeah, totally. Nice.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's it for another week. Thanks for listening. Hit subscribe and we will see you next week. Have I done everything that I can to allow myself to hold people accountable and have the conversations that I need to have? Because if you haven't, then you're kind of getting like you're you're wasting a lot of energy being frustrated. You haven't gotten it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're leaving stuff on the table. Yeah, totally. Nice.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's it for another week. Thanks for listening. Hit subscribe, and we will see you next week.
