The Pattern That Predicts Whether Coaching Actually Works

James Johnson and Freddie Birley answer a listener question on how to actually get value from coaching, not the version you perform for LinkedIn, the version where you say the thing you have been avoiding saying out loud.

They cover the line between reflection and procrastination, why a pattern of last-minute rescheduling is rarely just about being busy, and why watching what someone does with their time tells you more than what they say they care about. Founders who are coached, or considering it, will hear something they recognise.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Pure Effect Post Bag. I'm James Johnson, joined by Freddie Burley. We ask for your questions, and Freddie and I are going to tackle them together. These aren't theoretical case studies, it's the stuff keeping you up at 2 a.m. Let's get answering. Welcome to Periffact Postbag. This is where we answer founders' questions. I'm James Johnson.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

And I'm Freddie Burley.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

So, Freddie, what have you been up to this week?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

I went to Edinburgh this weekend, which was actually so fun. One of my really good friends writes musical theatre, and so she's spending three months up there. And it was just magic to hang out and um eat all the food and explore the city.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Tried Mars bars?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

We actually didn't, sadly. Um I was really hoping to lean into like a late-night Mars bar chippy situation. Apparently, like I'm not a big fan of like curry sauce of chips, but apparently that's like a go-to there.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

So I went to Union Edinburgh. There was there's a there's a great pizza. My my record is there's a there was a pizza place called Pete's Paradise at the top of an old town. Okay. And you walk down into New Town, there was another one just at the bottom. So I did one night much have a whole pizza on the walk down from the top one and then had another one at the chaser, chaser meal halfway down.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Perfect. Absolutely perfect. We didn't quite get to that. I kind of I've been really sick, and so I kind of hit a wall, and I was like, after like the bar and then dinner and drinks, I was like, I need to go home now. Suddenly, it was like a now now thing. So I'll have to save the deep fried Mars bar and the the yeah, the chippy marathon for another for another trip.

SPEAKER_00 1:41

It's such a beautiful city, though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Yeah, it's stunning. It's got also it's very calm. It's got a really chilled vibe, but still feels really beautiful. And there's lots of kind of artisanal, crafty restaurants and shops, and yeah, I found it magical. Yeah. It's a good place. It's a good place. So question for this week from Adam How do you get the most from coaching? Oh, what a fun question. How do you get the most from coaching? What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 2:13

I mean, there's so much in there, isn't there? I'll do some top of my thoughts, maybe just riff off those. So I think I think one said I think there are different stages to coaching, and I think it's quite helpful to acknowledge them. I think there's kind of like a clarity phase and an execution phase. And ideally, it's kind of it's never truly one or the other, but it's it does tend to lean to like where you are as a founder, to what you're looking at. And sometimes you'd really need support, like, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? And sometimes like sometimes it leans much into the how, like, what's the plan? Am I on track? What's the sort of what's the tactical decision around key people or or a key something? And I think that's okay. So I think sometimes it's very clear as the sort of as the coachy what you want to discuss. And sometimes it's not, because actually the thing that's just having space to let stuff bubble up is also valuable. So I think some of the most, almost some of the best sessions I've ever had is where someone goes, always goes, Oh, I've been too busy thinking about it. I don't really have anything to talk about today. Maybe we should just maybe we can just skip this one. Actually, like when you give someone that space, go, actually, there really is something that comes up that's really cool. So I think it's it's a balance of like those things. And that also means that sometimes kind prepared going, I want to wear this, it's helpful. And sometimes just going, I am really busy, I haven't had time to think. Can I just use this time to download and see what I'm actually feeling?

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Is helpful. I think it's all I do think there's taking responsibility as the person being coached to actually do stuff between sessions. And that's not really homework. I don't really say like, oh, I'll set you something to read. I think sessions done well, stuff comes up you're going to work on or think about, but it is actually taking time to reflect, taking time to execute, taking time to maybe experiment in between sessions and taking energy of that as the client. Because I I have seen sometimes coaching used as a form of procrastination. It's like, oh well, when I've really understood it, then I'll do it. Like, that's not kind of how it works. Like, there's a there is some this is meant to be facilitating you to do and therefore to achieve a goal. So I think being quite clear between both of you and your coach what the big goal is, what you're working towards is helpful to make sure that you can sort of go a bit off track session by session, but you're still overall trending towards where you want to get to.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

I think being very honest with your coach and not trying to present like your coach should be the one person in the world that you can truly be open with because there's no power dynamic going on. Like it's it's different for your team, it's different for your business partner, potentially even different at home. Yeah. Like your coach has no real ax to grind on this, and therefore, if you're not going to be homestead open, almost why why why try it? Yeah. Your coach doesn't care about your your public persona. We get to see the difference between like the LinkedIn version of you and the real version. And actually, the real version is much more fun.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

And I think maybe the the final thing before I sort of stop my extended monologue. No, I've loved it. Is the uh I think committing to it because I I've definitely seen with some clients, it's like everyone's busy. If you're a scale-up founder, you have much more to do than you do have time, but not committing to the sessions and like trying to rearrange late. Yes, I think as a founder coach, you know that with that comes some flexibility. Stuff does come up, there is business trips, there are important board meetings, that can be an additional session or something moved. But if there is a pattern of just last minute shifting, I think that's worth exploring as to how committed you are either to the process or enjoying it, because it should be possible to commit to 80% of a of a of a clearly scheduled thing. And if and if you're doing that for your coach, you're probably doing that internally to your team, which is probably a pattern of behavior which is quite reactive and is causing you bigger issues within the business. So I think it can flush out. I'm just being willing to hear that from your coach and go, okay, I'm experiencing this as your coach. I suspect if I'm experiencing it, the previous email, this could be the consequence of it. Because I think as as someone's coach, you have a real, as you've got relationship, ability to call them on stuff that probably no one else would. And that's almost one of your goals as a coach, to build that relationship where you truly can almost cash in those chips occasionally and go, can I can I have an uncomfortable conversation with you for your for your benefit?

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Oh, there's so much in there. I it's interesting because a lot of what you've said, I I think reflects also my own personal experience of what I think is helpful in my coaching sessions with my coach and also with my clients. What you've said, that that balance between clarity and execution, I couldn't agree more with that. The the piece that I've really changed on is I used to think you kind of have you need to be doing things in between sessions or like you need to show up prepared in order to make the most of the experience. But sometimes, even in the process of preparing, I found for myself in my coaching or even observing other people, like observing people with me, that sometimes the preparation, they're too in their head. They're like, in theory, this is what I think I should be discussing in my coaching session, but actually isn't that important. And so when you're with the when they're in the in theory part of what they think they should be exploring, you're often not in the reality of what's actually most essential or what's actually blocking you or what's actually going on. And when I think about the most important conditions to get out of coaching, it's like number one, trust so that you can tell the truth. Because exactly as you said, it's one relationship in your life where all like we are purely incentivized for their good and their growth. We want our clients to thrive. We want them to do it in a way that feels good, we want them to have extraordinary results and in and being able to very openly and honestly discuss whatever is going on in their life without someone else having to factor in what we think or put like that we would judge them or that we'd have conflicting motivations or conflicting incentives. That's actually such an extraordinarily unique relationship and very unique dynamic. So if you you're you're you're missing out on such a huge opportunity if you don't trust the coach enough to tell them the full truth, as it's it's almost like unique to anything else in the world. So I'd say like fundamental two conditions are like real sense of deep trust. And the second part, I think, is excitement. As you're kind of meeting different coaches, or just if once you've decided to commit to someone, I think you've got to feel excited about that process and excited about seeing them. And it's like a conversation that gives you energy and you come away feeling energized because I I think coaching is often like support and challenge. And sometimes for your growth and your good, your coach is gonna need to mirror things that feel kind of spicy at you, and you need to be able to receive those in a way. But I think there's if you're excited by the sessions and you're excited by the growth and you're excited by the process, you're gonna be so much more receptive to those spicier challenges than when than if you're not as bought in. Um, and I think also energy is a good signal of alignment and resonance. And so if you're excited, I generally think not like crazy elated, like fangirling, but like the excited, like you're committed, you really want to be like um a partner with this person um in the process, then you're, I think you're you're gonna grow a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

I think that works for the coach as well. I think if you you can get a sense as with certain clients, you feel like a real energy, that real excitement, that kind of and that alignment probably does lead to better work, leads probably like more time thinking between sessions. Because a coach, it's not just about the session. You are also reflecting during the week. You are also thinking about it, you're also preparing for stuff, you also see stuff. Oh, I should speak to sort of X about this. And so I do think that excit that energy is a really if you can feel energy, I think that's that's really nice. And I think maybe also this results part. I think that you should feel like there is a result. Yes, like clarity like where you're trying to get to. And suddenly say, Oh, I actually I didn't realize I'd be feeling like the sense of movement this early, or I'd be feeling that much closer to my goal, or it's kind of, oh, I can really feel like this continuing this. I'm gonna either get back on track or even exceed where I was.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

I I do think being quite clearer on the result part, I do think coaching should be quite outcome-focused.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

100%. And that's what changed that's what differentiates it from therapy, or differentiates it from like mentorship and advisory, is really like what is the goal and how do we move from A to B. The interesting part as well, I found though, is that by anchoring into the goal, if people aren't making progress towards the goal, it gives you so much more data on either why they're avoiding making progress or that we set the wrong goal because they're they're actually focusing on something else out here. And so it's it's and then you just get to change, you shift the post. And you're like, oh, okay, if if what we thought was the goal isn't the goal, let's make the goal, the actual goal, the goal, and and then move towards that. So I think also just by setting it and speaking it, it gives you the clarity and it gives you the data of whether it's right or not.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Yeah, I think that's a really nice point because I even even invalidating the original goal or changing it has value.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Your your actions do where you focus your time gives clues as to what you actually care about. And if you're saying, Oh, I all I care about is doing this and your actions aren't leading towards it, that's probably not what you care about, is it?

SPEAKER_01 11:27

A hundred percent. And I say I always say that people vote with their feet. And so it's much more important to watch people's actions than it is their words. And when people's feet aren't actually doing what they think is important, it's because they're scared. And so they're avoiding what they think is important. And that's when like coaching can be insanely powerful and helping unblock the fears so that you actually can redirect your feet towards alignment or to redirect your awareness towards what's true. Because if you are actually voting with your feet and you are on the right path, but you keep talking about all these other things that are important, you're doing yourself a disservice because it's basically like saying all the stuff I do isn't important, and there are all these other more important things out there that I don't have a desire to do, but I'm gonna still talk about it. So I think it's also just about like how do we create more congruence? Coaching is like, how do we get you on the right path? Or if you're on the right path, how do you like really appreciate the path? And both of those are really important. It's like a shift in perspective or it's a shift in action, and generally, normally both.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Yeah, because I think maybe if people struggle to be pinned down to a goal, there's something else going on. I've I've don't I've experienced some clients where you start and go, Oh, this is this is what I want to focus on, and then you start moving towards going, oh, it's actually this. No, it's actually this. There's there's something deeper going on in terms of not wanting to be an entrepreneur, someone who's not wanting to be a founder, or there's the I don't know, it just it's just often what people come to they're searching for something that actually they may be down a path they don't want. And that and that's fine. I think it's I think it's good to uncover that to go, what is the path that gives you both financial but also personal joy? Because often it's kind of sense, oh well, you're a business coach, which focus on a business objective. But if if your business and personal objectives are not aligned, either you probably won't achieve it or you're gonna get this increased sense of dissonance and there is gonna be like a personal cost to that journey.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Especially in entrepreneurship, there are other jobs that are much more separate from you and they don't require as much of you. But I I often think like entrepreneurship is the greatest vehicle for your growth. Most entrepreneurs are constantly operating at their discomfort zone, they're they're constantly stretching themselves. And so, in that transition, you're always gonna be at the edge of your like insecurities, of your greatest gifts, of your skills. And so that if there's a dissonance between what you're building and who you are as a human being, that's gonna be so much heavier to carry because it requires so much of you. If there's a dissonance between the work you do and who you are, but you have very clear boundaries and you work like a nine to five, and you, you, you're like, my work is my work, and it provides for my outside of work, which gives me fulfillment. But entrepreneurship is often so much more blurry and it's not as you can't predict and you can't be like, I'm only gonna work for these hours because you don't actually know when you're necessarily gonna be needed. And so I think that like alignment is even more essential in entrepreneurship because it just requires so much of you.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

It's almost hard to like distill it into sort of one takeaway. Yeah, it really is. I wonder whether it's it doesn't it doesn't have to be, I think just acknowledging maybe that there is a two-way responsibility on coaching. So it's a coach's responsibility to sort of show up, ask the right questions, sort of enable that growth. But there is a responsibility on the coachy as well, like in coach selection, in commitment to the process, in doing the work and done right, you're both going to be in a high energy, high results state. And so you you'll see you'll feel and see sort of the positive results of a of a positive collaboration.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

And I think that's an amazing summary. And also sometimes the sometimes if there isn't, if it's not resonating, if you don't feel that sense of like trust, excitement, commitment, like clarity around goals, you aren't seeing positive results in how you're feeling and what you're creating, sometimes it's not the right fit. And that's also okay. And so acknowledging like you might do a season with one person and be like, that served me well, and I'm now gonna move on to the next. And I do also just as a kind of I don't, I personally don't see coaching as something you just do forever necessarily with one person. I think some partnerships do work really well long term because you're both consistently growing and evolving and you feel that up-leveling because therefore each of you are kind of different each time you recommit. And I also think coaching can serve you really well for a short season where you get the growth and the awareness that you needed, and then you pause and then you're out in the world. And so I think that's also it's it's just being in tune with what feels right as as much as yeah, what the outcomes are.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Amazing. Thanks for listening. That was it for another episode. Remember to hit subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes, and we'll see you next week. Happy scaling