Why Co-CEOs Can Be a Superpower

What actually makes a co-founder relationship work?

In this episode of Peer Effect, James Johnson sits down with Verna co-founders and co-CEOs Rafi Cohen and Dr. Matthew Brown.

They unpack why they chose a co-CEO structure, how they built deep trust before scaling, and the systems they use to maintain radical honesty while leading a fast-growing climate tech company.

The conversation covers productive tension, founder communication, remote-first leadership, handling disagreements, and why most co-founder relationships fail long before the business does.

A masterclass in building companies and relationships that last.

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Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hi, I'm James Johnson, founder and CEO coach. Welcome to Peer Effect, the podcast where your peers will tell you what's unlocking their 10 million plus business. My guests today are Rafi Cohn and Dr. Matthew Brown, co-founders and co-CEOs of Verna. It's a nature tech company building the operating system for nature restoration. They've raised 4 million in seed and used to lead climate teams at DEFRA, BCG, and KPMG. We get into how being co-CEOs is a superpower and how to build an awesome co-founder relationship. Remember to hit the subscribe button before we get started. And now on with the show. Matthew and Rafflee, welcome to the show. Thank you. So this is a historic moment of the podcast. Double double guests. Um which is which is good considering we're talking about the opportunities and challenges of being co-CEOs. But I thought we might start like, how did you guys get here? What what what got you to where you are today? What's your journey been?

SPEAKER_02 1:12

So we we were talking before about whether we're gonna name check uh the guy to whom we owe our partnership. Where did we land on that, Rafi? I think we can. Okay, so um I guess the kind of short story to how we ended up creating Verna together uh is that a few years ago we were both independently asking our friends and other contacts, we're asking around saying we really want to um start something focused on sustainability. Um is there anyone that that we should talk to? And uh this guy, Stephen, um, who I used to work with and who's a good friend of Rafi's, uh, we were we we both asked him the same question and he said you you guys should have coffee and it kind of started there. Um we we both have a strong um kind of previous career and motivation around environment, sustainability, doing something about all the challenges facing the world. Uh so I guess that's why we were both asking those questions of Stephen and why he ended up uh putting us in touch for our fateful breakfast. Yeah, yeah, accidental founder matchmaking, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

And so you've now you've now got to a stage where sort of burner's up and running, you guys have just fundraised, and you uh Rapha you decided to do something at the same time, I understand. As well as fundraising, you're working on a on a on your own little side project.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Um I I'm not sure exactly what it is, but on the same day that um uh we we signed the term sheet, uh my daughter was bored. So I don't know if that's a side project you're talking about. That was a side project I was talking about. Yeah, so that was that was obviously kind of a fairly intense day. Um and also saw it as actually closing off the deal just in the nick of time because as you might know, James, well once the new baby arrives, uh continuing the fundraiser would have been a little bit more difficult. So uh yeah, that was a a memorable memorable day.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

There does seem to be something about fundraising while having a child. I've had a couple of guests do that, and it seems to be something that's kind of double double, we feel about double jeopardy sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

I I think babies cost money, right? So the money's gonna come from Homewell.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

I'm picturing your deck kind of like X millions for fundraising, I mean X friend for like tech development, X million for marketing, and sort of baby as a as a as a third line item.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

The fine the final slide of the deck just says baby needs new shoes.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Yeah, it there is an interesting point there though, I think, that you know, we've we've done two raises. The first one was a fairly small raise, both times around the time that um my wife and I uh introduced a new daughter to the world. And certainly with the first one, you know, there's a big parallel between uh a baby and how vulnerable they are in a startup in its very earliest stages in you know a single niche with no customers and not very much runway. Uh and then over time, it feels to me there is a parallel in terms of you know building resilience, um, gathering strength to be able to kind of weather ever greater storms. Uh, and so uh it it it it does feel like there's a parallel. Certainly with my older daughter and the the stages that Vern has been at. Um I dread to think if we get to a stage where they're both teenagers, what that might look like.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

I was thinking, I mean, how many series are you gonna go through by trying to get to series C or D where Farm's gonna be quite large?

SPEAKER_00 4:44

It depends which is the driving factor.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Um so you you guys have got the show, the business I can run in. What we're gonna talk upstairs is the idea of you guys being fish is an unusual structure. What made you decide on that?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Um, it's a really interesting question, and the design on it might be a little bit of a um uh a red herring because you know we met, we had the ideas, we explored things together over really a number of years before we uh kind of left our jobs and went full-time onto Verna and really took the leap. And by that time, to some extent, I guess it was an implicit kind of agreement that we would both be co-leading the organization. If that was the case, then why wouldn't we be uh co-COs? But I think there were a couple of interesting things to reflect upon. The first was it was a real strength that for a couple of years we worked together when it was always easiest for us to walk away. You know, we had busy jobs, we had partners and families, um yet we stuck at it, and through that, actually, and inevitably through you know some tough times or or disagreements, we stuck at it and built a strong foundation of trust between the two of us. And that was really valuable. It was frustrating at the time because we both wanted to get going, but actually, you know, building that trust in fairly low-stakes environment, I think has stood us in really good stead. And over that time it it kind of had just become obvious that co-CEOs can be a superpower. And the way I think about it actually is in any sort of uh relationship between two people, a marriage or something like that, that you know, when a marriage isn't going well, that's terrible for everyone. But if it's going well, it's much better than being single. And I think that's the same uh in a co-CEO relationship. The fact that you know we get on, we've built uh a strong relationship, we have really high trust, I think, between the two of us. And on top of that, our skills and interests uh to some extent complement each other, to a large extent complement each other, uh means that we're much stronger for having the co-CEO partnership. In some ways, um it's strange to us when people are surprised by it. Because logically, you know, two people working together with different skills, uh having an equal relationship and complementing each other should be stronger, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:21

I mean often often there's a traditional hiring is kind of CEO CTM and a lot of scale-ups. But something you said there's quite a strong side of that that you feel you have complementary skill sets, so it feels like there is a jigsaw to be made there. What what does that jigsaw sort of structurally practically look like?

SPEAKER_02 7:44

So there's kind of an obvious element to that, which I guess maybe because it's obvious might not be super interesting, but just about where our different kind of bits of domain expertise or technical expertise lie. Like I did a PhD that was um basically coding. I'm not a proper software engineer, and we we have a CTO and a proper software team for that, but um I can be a kind of semi-intelligent customer of what they're doing. Um, Rafi is a qualified accountant and has a deep background in um the commercial side of things. So there's some sort of fairly obvious ways in which we can split our day-to-day responsibilities between, for example, me more on the product side and Rafi more on the commercial side. I think probably where it gets more interesting is where our different kinds of the differences in our personalities and our approaches to things and our sort of um I don't know, default settings um bring the strength that you get through diversity and and productive tension. Um just something I say to Rafi sometimes I I didn't mention him in advance, I was gonna say it here. So let's see if he wants to kick me under the virtual table. But um, you know, we we we have some areas of productive tension, and one of them is, for example, Rafi will more often gravitate to better today than tomorrow, and I will more gravitate towards better right than rushed. And that is not to caricature either of us. I I care about going fast, Rafi cares about really high quality, but if we have a kind of inclination that's slightly one way or the other, then we tend to fall out in those ways. Um and I mean fall out on those parts of the spectrum, not fall out, uh, which actually leads into kind of my my final point there that Rafi talked a lot about trust and how in any kind of close and intertwined relationship, be it a kind of marriage marriage or a business marriage, uh, you need that foundation of trust. I think that lets us um get the benefits of the productive tension. Because if we were if we didn't have that level of trust and we weren't, if we were sort of um needing to kind of carefully walk around each other all the time, then we might have to kind of paper over those tensions or work around them. But because we've got the trust, we can almost lean into them and and call it out uh and then and and sort of play it out and and come to a better answer than the sum of uh parts, if that isn't a twisted metaphor.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

No, I just have this of like three elements there. So element one, which is there are complementary skill sets and backgrounds which lead to natural top domain expertise. There is then sort of acknowledgement of where you might differ in terms of your approaches and being quite explicit about that, and then consequently of like building trust based on res Soft like mutual respect in there and appreciation.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

I think that's right, and you know, even the other day um we had a conversation with with in in the broader group um where you know we maybe didn't see kind of perfectly eye to eye, and we just had a conversation afterwards and uh kind of uh tried to understand where both of us were coming from and how we were feeling, and you know, within a couple of seconds um we're we're in a good place. It just reminds me of I think there's a there's probably a fourth dimension to the three you mentioned, um, which actually uh uh is inspired by by Peep Show, which is a uh a topic that the person who introduced us is a big fan of. I once heard, I can't remember which of them, but David Mitchell or Robert Webb be interviewed. I think it was Robert Webb. And the question to him was, you know, there's not many partnerships in entertainment that last as long. How have you done it? And he said, you know, we always made the decision never to have that fight. Uh I don't know if you remember me kind of sharing that with you, Matthew. I remember where I was when I heard that. I think I shared it with you the day or two afterwards. And I think that's also something, you know, there's a certain level of kind of uh discipline which is informed by the trust and relationship that we have. Um that means we never really kind of lose our temper with each other um in a in a purposeful way. And that's been very powerful as well to kind of uh I think put a put a name to that sort of disagreement.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

It feels very intentional then. It feels like you're very intense about the different elements of intentionality around the split on what you focus on. There's intentionality around your relationship and also the communication styles, but it feels like you're working on the relationship as much as the practical sides of oh this is this is the structure, this is the whatever, is that is that fair?

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Yes, I think so. I think um, you know, I don't want to overindex on the marriage analogy, but we do actually go back to it quite a bit, don't we? Um, and you you know there's something that uh people often say, you know, if if you have like a wedding where there's uh an uh a sermon or some kind of officiator or something, I don't know what yours was like, Rafi. Um, but one of the messages that they often want to give to the the the uh people getting married is you have to work at this. You you have to put like deliberate intent and effort into this, and doing so will be really worthwhile, but you have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

I think the challenge though is often that creating the time to do that for founders who are busy, for sick into the startup phase, it is about survival, and it feels like there's a very task-focused in getting stuff done. I think making working on it and making time that is another task, which people it's important, but often doesn't feel urgent until it maybe leads into that conversation that you can't come back from. But it feels like you guys have deliberately made space for that as a high priority on your task list. And I was wondering like what caused that?

SPEAKER_00 13:56

What I think that's true. It's I think it's felt fairly easy, right? And that might just be luck, that I think generally we quite enjoy spending time with each other. Uh, I know for one that I've learned a lot of stuff, both kind of behavioural and also uh you know topical from Matthew. Hopefully, I've been able to share some things that he didn't know before as well. Um, and so you know, when we first got going, we actually in hindsight probably spent too much time uh with each other talking through things and um having discussions. We made an agreement that we'd have a Wednesday pint each week, which I think happened precisely once um ever. Um but you know, it it was just never that hard. There have been times I think where we've been very stretched and we've made a a decision to spend more time together. In the last couple of years, we've decided to go away two days, one night to somewhere different, and that's always been very helpful. Two or three of those have led to major decisions in moving the organization forward. Um, and so yes, you know, we put time into it, but I think found like fundamentally uh we have a mission that we're both aligned with that's quite core to each of us personally. Um we're both in this together, and one person once described a marriage as two two people financially crippling themselves equally, so so they will stay together. You know, we we this is our livelihood we're talking about. Neither of us, you know, um has a huge nest egg that that you know we could just disappear off to. So we're in similar positions in that way. Um and so it just feels very natural actually. Maybe that's luck, um, maybe it's you know something that's easy to do when we're in our thirties versus when we were early on in our lives.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Um just dropping in there that you're still in your 30s.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

I I was gonna let you get away with that, Matthew. Um, but you know, you said before the advice you got your at your wedding. The advice I got at my wedding was it was better to be happy than right. So maybe if I if I let you get away with things sometimes, that that is that advice coming through.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Well, happy wife, happy life, right? Yes. Um what what what feels interesting is that is the practicality here that so that you mentioned, so you do go away. I'm wondering what else you do both to sort of set up that both the focus of the roles in each of them, but also spending time on you you guys' part. Like what practically could other founders take from what you guys are doing here?

SPEAKER_02 16:42

I think in line with what you what Rafi was just saying, we've got more intentional about this as the business has grown, because in the early days it was just the two of us. Initially, as Rafi was saying, actually evenings and weekends, we were both holding down full-time jobs at the same time. Uh, and then we did our first fundraise, and then it was still just the two of us, and then we hired a few people. And um, the bigger the organization got, uh, the more we moved from a situation where we were spending all of our work time together anyway, because we were the business, to a situation where we could go whole days without talking to each other because we were working on different parts of the business with different parts of the team. Rafi's was very good actually about making sure that we um uh schedule in um ways to make sure that we keep that connection. So at the kind of bigger level, that's things like we go away once or twice a year or whatever, but also every week. I mean, this is not rocket science, right? But we have scheduled one-to-ones with quite a big chunk of time in the diary. Um, we take whole days together on a monthly basis. And um, when we set out our agenda for those, the agenda includes things like time for a heart-to-heart, not just not just all the um business items that we need to go through. It's probably quite a boring answer, but it's basically so actually something I've learned from Rafi is that a lot of what's needed to move a business forward is basically having a clear process and sticking to it in a really rigorous and disciplined fashion. And we try and bring that discipline to how we work together as well. So clarity about the things we need to talk about, and then we don't miss out the stuff that's about a broader kind of how are we doing chat, as well as how are we going to move that product thing along or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

There's one other additional point, I think, which is quite different to other um organizations I've seen or been in, or or relationships I've seen between work colleagues, which is we're extremely honest with each other in a respectful way and in the boundaries of knowing that we are going to be honest with each other, and that is a huge strength. Um and I suspect that the best organizations have that. Um I know corporates don't, right? And that's one of the reasons I think that um you know many people will choose to work in startups, and you know, the the pace of learning is quicker, and um all sorts of reasons. But that that radical honesty, I think, is absolutely key and has been absolutely key right from the start for the two of us.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

And we're incentivized to do it, right? I mean, not to play down how brilliant we are for have for deciding to work in that way and for putting the effort into work in that way, but like you were saying earlier, um we're kind of in the same boat. So if you take two people stuck somewhere in the middle ranks of a massive corporate, they're probably not personally incentivized to be radically honest with each other. That that's that's not how they'll have easier days or advance their careers. Um we are incentivized too, because if we don't make a success of Werner, then that's terrible for both of us.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

It's interesting you say that, but I mean there are a lot of co-founder pairs that aren't radically honest. I mean, radical candor is a model that I use as you know, Kim Scott's like big, big fan of that model. Um but I think just because you're aligned on a mission, just because you're aligned that you're you see the further doesn't necessarily correlate that with that comes honesty because there's a whole range of reasons why that might not be the case in terms of power gains or sort of whole range of things. I guess just because this is this is your guys' first experience of star, right? You came from from corporate backgrounds, it feels like what made you lean so strongly into this? Because it feels like you are you are deliberately making time from it. This this is not this is if you if you look online, this is not something you get recommended doing, this is very like new thinking. Um, as a coach, I like highly approve. I think it's the relationship aspect often breaks co-founder relationships, and particularly when you like you almost getting seven-year-rich earlier. As founders, we tend to do things quicker. Um but what made you go down this path and identify this as such a sort of a critical success factor.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

That's what we both think about it.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

I think it's honestly felt quite natural. I know that I wouldn't have been like that earlier on in my career or early on in my life, but there's an element of, at least in my case, maturity that um enabled it and facilitated it. Maybe there's an element of you know ultimately we really care about what we're doing, right? And there is a You know, a shared passion that's at the core of both of us around the nature and climate crises that are both are massively urgent and important to the level of being existential. I think most people in society, many people in society appreciate that those things are both true, but don't necessarily act on it on a day-to-day basis. It might be that there's something about realizing that and acting on it, because, you know, if you if you consider those things as true, uh, that maybe kind of guides us to both be very honest in a way that we wouldn't if we weren't doing something that we thought was, you know, from first principles thinking and urgent and important. So it might be a selection bias. The types of people that end up doing what we're doing in our specific niche might, for whatever reason, be have a higher propensity to um to kind of you know being really honest, transparent, and and and working together to address these big issues.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

It's interesting because I mean I've I've I've I have clients that have been in a space where it's very mission-led. And what I've found is that that can lead to an almost crippling sense of mission and self-sacrifice in terms of there's such a big thing I need to solve. I need to give up everything in order to achieve it. And if I leave anything on the table, I'm not trying hard enough. Which could lead to all that this this personal relationship stuff, that's uh that's a sort of a frivolity that I don't need. Or I I just need to accept the pain. So I actually think I've seen people within this space with this troop with that mission actually lead to extra detrimental personal behaviours because of that mission. So in some ways, I think the fact that you guys have lent into this as a superpower is almost more surprising. I mean, great, yeah, yeah, but almost more surprising.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

I mean something I think this is gonna make it sound very transactional, uh which I don't mean, but there is a level on which even if I all I cared about was the mission and forget the fact that I have a family and and what have you. I mean, of course, one point is if we don't succeed at this mission, then everybody's screwed, including our families. But we'd all have to one side for a moment and and just say if all I'm gonna optimise for is is mission accomplishing the mission. I can't do it without him because there's stuff that he can do that I can't do, and I like to think there's stuff that I can do that that he can't do. So that that does make it sound very transactional. Like obviously, I I only care about this Rafi guy because he's got some abilities that I don't have. Uh whereas, of course, there is actually a relationship there as well. But I wonder if that's that's a way in which the mission focus acts to bind us together, not to kind of make us blinkered to the importance of the relationship. I don't know. What do you think, Rafi?

SPEAKER_00 25:14

You it's very difficult, I think, because we don't really have a you know uh a hypothetical, uh, uh, you know, an alternative kind of life that we lived in the last few years. Yeah. But you know, it it feels the I think the answer to the the answer to the question, which I don't know, is probably a similar answer to why you get this pattern in certain romantic relationships and not. And it might just be it's the nature of the two individuals, the nature of the relationship where those two types of individuals come together. Um, you know, I I think Matthew, you've probably influenced me in terms of kind of speaking more honestly at times and um being more open uh as well. And so there's a little bit of learning from the two. So, you know, whatever the answer is, more generally in relationships, I think is the same answer. But I'm not entirely sure what that is.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Interestingly, I would have said that you'd made me more honest as well. So there's there's something uh uh going on there that's hopefully a positive feedback circle.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

So we'll talk about how why it's so how it's working. Let's say you have a disagreement of something pretty critical. How would you normally go about resolving it? And perhaps you can use like as uh an example if that's helpful.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

If we use an example, that's risky. We we could undermine everything we just talked about. Um maybe we'll we'll end up having that conversation live on this podcast. I think I think there's one element where I think both of us, quite early on in our relationship, you know, found a way of saying, I'm actually not that happy about this situation or this decision. And being able to just say it clearly so both of us understood it, and then to talk it through. And then I think generally we talk on the basis of kind of facts and rationality, but those times we have had conversations that weren't, you know, with driven by emotions. Actually, we've signposted that quite well. You know, we said, you know, for whatever reason I feel strongly about this, I know it's not rational. If you don't feel strongly about it, then let's do it this way. If we both feel strongly about it, let's talk it out. Um I think probably our disagreements are really boring to watch because we're fairly kind of rational and about it. Um, I think one thing that we have done quite well is to lower the temperature of these conversations. We don't have these conversations in front of others. Um typically that would be kind of team members, it would be the natural way, but but typically we we kind of take that away uh and then and then discuss it and come back. Uh and sometimes when it's a really tricky topic, I think we we wait until we're in person, Matthew, and say, you know, this is a tricky topic, we're really gonna have to get in the weeds, it's gonna be difficult. We're seeing each other a week on Tuesday. Um, let's leave it until then.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Well, where is this? I mean, it feels like you're you're saying giving it names that are you're using quite a sort of coaching terminology here or sense of relationship sort of where is this language come from? Like, is this something you read up on since starting? Is this something that you guys have picked up on before? Where where is this sort of toolkit coming from?

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Out of interest, what language are you picking up on on that question?

SPEAKER_01 28:45

So things like naming, naming how you're feeling, like naming the emotion, talking about it in decharge terms, trying to hear each other's perspective. Like if this feels like you've you've experienced something, or someone has given you tools that that you that you are bringing either to this or from another situation. I'm just just curious.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

It's really interesting. So I'm really interested in what Matthew has to say about this. Um the nearest I can get to is you know, growing up as a teenager and I was fascinated by human behaviour. Uh, it led to me studying um quite a big part of my degree was kind of uh behavioral psychology as well as kind of more those the physiology and neuro side of it. And so I, for one, have just had a huge interest in uh um interpersonal behavior. Um, it's probably quite odd for a 15-year-old to read um The Psychology of Interpersonal Behaviour by Michael Isaac. That was one of the first books uh uh you know I I read kind of post-GCC, I guess, or just before. So maybe that's where some of it's coming from on my side, um, Matthew.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Well, so this is very interesting because I think you're right in what you've identified, James, that a lot of how we work through tricky issues, whether they're tricky issues between us or just that we're kind of jointly solving a tricky thing, um, is that we have a kind of a meta conversation where we don't just have the conversation but we signpost to each other, this is why we're having this bit of a conversation, this is why I'm feeling this way, or oh, we're going into that pattern again where you do this and I do that, and you know, we know how to deal with that. Um, and so where did I get that from? Uh, I don't have anything like the background or the skills that Rafi has here. So I was like, um, you know, physical science is all the way. I'm terrible at managing relationships and understanding interpersonal things. Um, but I think I've learnt it from people like Rafi. And also my wife is a counselling psychologist, so it's impossible to sort of not have some of that stuff. Basically, having never won an argument with my wife about anything, some of the understanding has rubbed off on me about the importance of being able to um understand the dynamics of what's going on in a conversation and not just look on the surface of the conversation itself.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Yeah, because what's what I'm taking is also like a very mindful way of approaching us. You guys are sort of in the moment, but also able to take a step back and go observe what's going on. And I'm I'm guessing you might even do like a retrospective of a meeting if you feel like it hasn't gone how you wanted to analyse what was going on. Again, that's quite coaching. And one of the models I'd really look at is like chimp paradox by Fus Two Peters, just because I think it's it's simplified a lot of the things. Probably for you, Raffi, that is like a it's probably a little gross simplification there, but it's quite a simple model that people can can can get their heads around.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Is that can you talk about the chimp paradox? I might know it, but not of that.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

So it's about the idea is it's kind of mapping parts of your brain to like chimp human computer. So your chimp is your sort of respond part, your human is your self-actualized part, and your computer is where all your programming sits. Um, that your chimp and your human program throughout your life.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

We actually talked about that, I think, a fortnight ago, Matthew. I think it was with you I had that conversation. Is it bad that I don't remember? Computer and human, no?

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Obviously, I pay for attention to everything that you say at all times.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

That's the key, James Selective Hearing.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

I I've I've been wondering while we've been talking actually if there's another factor as well. Um this is when I think we share. You know, we've talked a lot about our differences and how we sort of tend towards different parts of spectrums and things, but um we both get quite frustrated quite quickly by a feeling of being stuck and of not moving things along. Uh that might well be common to lots of entrepreneurs, actually, because I suppose it's all about wanting to make things happen quickly and and make big things happen quickly, right? Uh but I think in the same way we might get frustrated with a business process in Werner if it's not moving with the speed and efficiency we want it to and want to kind of quickly correct that. I think if if we see in a conversation that we're getting stuck on something, we quite quickly want to then get through that and find a way to move things on. And often the way to get through that in a conversation is to step back and try and see what's really going on and why is it blocked, and sort of unpack that together. I just made that up, so I don't know if you agree with that, Rafi, but I I just had that thought on the uh on the fly.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Yeah, I I do. Well, I think what I'm curious about, James, is um is that you know, the the feedback I guess you're giving us is that this is slightly unusual. And I'm interested in to the extent to which that is true or not. Um I'd be fascinated in your view based on kind of what you've seen.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

So it feels to me that what you're doing is almost you're self-coaching around quite a lot of this. But you are you have from the beginning identified your relationship as a key part of your success, but then you've also put in place things to protect it and develop it. Which I do think is unusual, probably reflects like sort of your neuroscience background and math, your your wife's background, that's just like sort of learning biosmosis. I I do think we've found a particularly in the start phase, they are busy, and therefore it can become very task-focused. So you if you sit together for a day, there is an agenda. That agenda does not include like catch-up, how are you, at the time beyond beyond accursed reverse. Sometimes, particularly with remote teams, it's becoming harder to spend that time together, and historically that time scales maybe over a pint to do so. But that's not that's not after a drink or two, that's actually not that's kind of relationship building, but it's not very mindful time because it's hard to be mindful when you've had a couple of drinks. Um it's quite surfaced. Um, but it does feel like you've you're you're looking at processes for the business to make it more effective, but also looking at processes for your relationship, which I think people could do a lot more, and often as coach, coach, you get brought in at a point where it's not working. So it's kind of okay, you've spent three years together. Actually, what are you feeling? Like, is are your roles clear? Like, are you both aligned to the vision? Like, what are you doing that's annoying each other that you can no longer talk to each other about? And actually, there needs to be a third person in the room to kind of facilitate that conversation and give the language. Often people just do not have the language to have that conversation in a safe way, either in a work relationship or in a personal relationship. So it's not something people just co-founders are ill equipped to do. I think it's things that people in general are ill-equipped to do, which is why you don't have those conversations, which leads to 50% divorce rights, uh, amongst other things. So I I do think it's unusual, both both professional and personal.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

I wonder, and this is a I'm just thinking about this now. I wonder what you think, Matthew and James as well. Uh, whether us being remote first in some ways kind of nudged us towards being a little bit more mindful about this. Because we started as remote first before it was cool. Um, you know, I think when we probably went full-time, we'd only met each other probably four or five times, even though we've been working together for maybe two years. I wonder if there's something that dynamic that, you know, obviously there's something missing there because we're not meeting in person every day or frequently. So as a result of that, we need to think of something, you know, a little bit more purposefully to put in place. Would we have done that if we were seeing each other every day? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

I think that's a really interesting point. And I I wonder, and this is a totally unproven hypothesis, but if being remote first tends to go one of two ways, either the relationships don't build at all because there isn't the kind of accidental uh relationship building and kind of glue that comes from being in the same office environment or whatever, or it makes you really intentional about it, and we ended up going down the intentional route. But I don't know, James, you probably see remote first organizations all the time, so you might you probably know the answer to that much better than than we would.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Just as you know, you thought you having a pint or whatever and a and a conversation is is much more natural and sometimes quite superficial, as you said, James. When you can't do that really, uh, or is easily over remote, maybe you just have to you know uh put more effort into it. But yeah, James.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Well I would also I'd also add, I wonder whether because you guys also felt like you very deliberately set out to look for a partner, and that was a part that was always startup, like your match made, you both were asking around, which showed you both put a high level of importance on that, and then having been introduced having spent time looking for it, it probably meant you valued that partnership because you've gone out to go so so maybe that has also influenced the amount of importance that you have put on it. Um I think I I do agree that I think remote first can make it harder or easier because you then deliberately make the effort, but it's just very deliberate, like you deliberately make a choice, okay. This is important, we're gonna do it, and you can sort of being in office, it probably doesn't go quite as wrong as fast because you get those water cooler moments and you you can maintain relationship easier, but I think in the same way it's also then easier to not prioritize it because you kind of you have the the false perception of time, it's like qual quality time, like it is not necessarily quality time being in office, just because you're around each other, whereas you guys are making that very much that deliberate choice of how do we create quality time.

SPEAKER_00 39:24

Um that's reflect I think there's certainly an element of that. There's certainly an element of that. We can't, you know, it's it's annoying that we can't kind of run the experiment in in different control uh controlling for different variables, but it's I think it's likely that that an element of that has has driven kind of how we've behaved.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

So for other founders listening, we were wrapped finish up the other side. For other founders listening, what is the one thing that you guys feel that they could copy today? Like, you know, to listen to this and go, right, we're gonna go and do this. I mean each, what is the one thing that you feel founders that are scaling could could do around this?

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Oh, this is such a boring answer because it's gonna sound so obvious, but just um dedicate a big chunk of time to the co-founder relationship. So, you know, we even if we're not in a week where we have a full day together, which we do roughly monthly, um, we have multiple hours of meeting time of one-to-one time with each other every week. And I especially given that you've said this to us, James, about how other people work, I can imagine that that might seem over the top and to people and kind of a waste of time that could be otherwise productive. But I think what we get out of that time is well worth the time investment. So it's a very kind of simple tip, but I think it's I think it pays off.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

And just just on that, that time is is there's there's free-form time in there, so it's not just task focused. So there's like a monthly kind of that spend time on us as a as a relationship, but also task.

SPEAKER_02 41:23

There's this getaway once or twice a year, and then these these conversations during the week, are they so we we maintain a kind of shared agenda document of things that we need to talk about in those one-to-one spots. Uh so any time with either of things sort of, oh, I should I need to talk to Rafi about that, we just go and pop it on the agenda and then it'll be there when we next speak. A lot of that, as you'd expect, is very business focused and transactional, gotta get this done, got to get that done, gotta decide on this together. Um, but we will put points in that agenda, which are bigger conversations. And we will often start those meetings by just exchanging how we're feeling. And that exchange might last two minutes because there isn't anything of great import, and then we get stuck into the business agenda. Uh, but it that exchange, out of a 60-minute meeting, that exchange might last 30 minutes if it turns out that how we're feeling uh is uncovering something that is a shared worry we both have, or or a worry that one of us has and the other one needs to help with, or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

And Rafi.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

I think building on that, you know, make the time, during that time communicate and make sure communications are honest and respectful. Feel like a good guiding principle that served us well thus far, at least.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Thank you so much for coming on today. I think this has been fascinating, and I really hope that other co-founders and people generally take take something useful for how to build sort of respectful, productive relationships which which lead to good things. Thank you, James. It's been fun. Subscribe if you want more actual insight from founders scaling now. We'll see you next week.