How to Validate a Startup Idea (Before You Waste Time & Money) | Aaron Solomon, Ambl

What if you could validate your startup idea before wasting months (or years) building the wrong thing?

Aaron Solomon, founder of Ambl, shares the real story behind building a startup from the ground up - including failure, lost savings, and the hard lessons that led to raising £4.3M and scaling internationally.

In this episode:
 • How to test a business idea in the real world
 • Why most founders overbuild (and how to avoid it)
 • The power of customer conversations
 • Turning a “feature” into a scalable product
 • Expanding into new markets like Dubai

A must-listen for founders, operators, and anyone building something from scratch.

More from James:

Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hi, I'm James Jensen, founder and CEO coach. Welcome to Peer Reflect, the podcast where your peers will tell you what's unlocking their 10 million plus business. My guest today is Aaron Solomon, founder of AMBL, their real-time discovery and reservation platform removing friction and choosing where to go out. They've raised 4.3 million seeds for Industry Angels and are live with hundreds of venues in the UK and UAE. We're going to talk about how to validate a new market so you can really focus your efforts on the right areas. Remember to hit the subscribe button before you get too engrossed in the episode. And let's get cracking. Aaron, welcome to the show. Now we're going to talk later about how to enter a crowded market, but Ambler is not your first rodeo, is it?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

It's the first one that started to work. The other ones were kind of, I'd say very expensive side hustles that I was doing on my own. Um back when I was early 20s, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Tell a bit about your first one. I understand that was quite a learning experience for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, that was a clothing business that I started to. So I was working in Knightsbridge at the time, and I'd go to the charity shop on my lunch break and buy clothes from there. And the kind of clothes that you were getting in that kind of charity shop in that part of London was, you know, uh better than Average. Yeah. Yeah. So I started to sell some of that on eBay, and then I started to notice that um it was as I've been in the city since I was 18, and it was at the time where people started to move from suits and ties to more smart casual, and I couldn't really find other than sort of round Florence shirts, like there's sort of middle ground for sort of smart casual wear, so you know, trousers, shirts, loafers, that sort of thing. And I basically manufactured, designed, built everything, and that was just as Instagram was starting to become a thing, and it started to work. Like I had that business for about a year and a half. I was making about seven, eight grand a month at one point selling clothes, and then I invested everything I had into a certain line of clothing, and it came back all bad. So I lost all my savings and I actually left my job to continue it. So it's like a couple months after I quit. That was a tough time. That was a tough time. Kind of scared me off on tripeneuralism for a couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

I can imagine. And what what what brought you back to it then? Because we like that's quite a painful first go at it.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was. Um I look, I I had an amazing job, I had an amazing boss, I had fantastic friends, and I was in a and um I had an amazing career, so I didn't hate a nine to five. I wasn't like, I want more, I want this, I want to be my own boss. It was nothing like that. It was just this I just want to build something, I just want to do something, I want, I want to continue working on something and see the fruits of it, you know. Um, because when I got sort of the top of of what I was doing before, I was like, this can't be it. This can't be it. But the idea came around from from just a like it, you know. I think the best idea is like you'll know from talking to founders, is it was a problem that they had, and it's like, why is no one doing anything about this? And it was kind of just an extension of of that. And the problem being that my boss was asking me to try and find a table, and I was like, why is this so difficult? Why can't I just say I need this and someone give me the answer? And I just had this instant vision for the product, and I couldn't find that product.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

So you so you had this instant vision for it, and you're sort of the problem statement came to you through through person. What how did you sort of validate it? Because you're looking at a market where it looks fairly full from external effects of you've got sort of open table and resie in different places.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Yeah, but that was right. It was it was there's a couple of points to that. So the validation came from me walking around London every day after work, pitching restaurants and bars this idea to bring them people in the moment. So instead of waiting for people to come through the apps that you mentioned or websites or phone, what if you could see people in the moment them going, I need this, and actually say, Yes, we've got space so it's a level playing field because you know those sort of apps will pay to be at the top, pay to be seen more. But if you're in the middle of London or any major city and you go, Okay, two of us need a table now and it pings out like an Uber, what if the restaurant could respond to you and actually tell you that they're free rather than you having to go do all the work? So that's kind of the play on it. But to the other point about okay, is it a bit of crowded market? And the answer to that is yes, but there's only a couple of platforms like the ones you mentioned, OpenTale Resi, that then book their own venues, but there's multiple reservation systems globally that make up the rest of the market that don't have consumer-facing products. So that's the difference with us, is we have a consumer app, that's all we are, but we integrate into many different reservation systems so that people can see in multiple places and from multiple platforms. So it's like a skyscanner for tables.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Let's jump into the sort of the the pounding the streets part first. Like I'm quite impressed that that's that's how you do it. How how long were you doing that before you were like, okay, yes, this is this is the one?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Did it every day for about three months? Um and I'd go after work and I'd because I lived at an hour and a half out of London, I'd stay sometimes overnight in like not nice hotels, travel lodges, things like that, just to like because I'd be out really late, you know, because I'd leave work at 6, 5.36, I'd then get into the city, and then I'm talking to restaurants, then it's dinner service. I'm kind of waiting till the managers after that, so it's like 10, 11 o'clock from having conversations, and then obviously I've got to be in off work at half seven the next day, so I can't go back to South End or Essex. Um so it was it was a lot, but I really started to understand the market then of what the problems were with the bigger players, you know, the costs involved, the pain points of the venues, um, and really try and work hard on something. Well, actually, I've have I'm having this problem as a customer despite there being products out there, and actually, there was maybe a better solution to these venues so that they can see more customers, get more customers, and have a level playing field. Because you've got top top brands that have a lot of money that pay to be seen more, but then you've got the most amazing family-run restaurants that don't get seen as much, and uh, I I I just felt it should be level playing field.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

So it's a little bit like what Amazon did for books, it's kind of like a little bit the long tail, like bringing the long tail to life.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Hmm. So you probably also got quite fit for three months as well, maybe you're spending all this time walking around.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Drinking, because I'd buy a drink just to have a conversation with someone. So I wasn't getting fit. But I was doing a lot of steps. I think one night I did 17,000 steps.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

I think about took a picture of it as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

So actually, when you so you you did the validation yourself, you spent three months really getting into it, and you've uncovered this this pain point that you that you guessed was there, but what happened? What's what next?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

It was just not like I was like a dog with a bone. Like, I was like, oh my god, there's something here, and I'm gonna go and do it, and I'm gonna try and make this work. Um I then raised when I pitched it to uh our chairman with my best friend, uh, who's my co-founder. I said, mate, this has got legs, like how many times have we been in Madrid, Dubai, London, and we are trying to find a table, and we're just having to go around apps and websites and calling. Why can't we just go, I need this, give it to me, like everything else works nowadays? So he was on board, and then our chairman, who is a big foodie, and you know, um, we explained to him, and he was like, Yeah, like I love it. Like a nice core, because that that sector hasn't really been challenged for a long, long, long time. It's just you know, the big players, like you mentioned. Um, and there was a lot more like the visuals and and the way that you can interact with the venue, how actually I want an app to be working. I want to say something and get the answer back. Um, so we raised money, and then I had some clients invest very early on, and then the learning starts. Um it's honestly like, and I was thinking about it today, weirdly enough, it's like you just keep going forward, and then you look back and think, fucking hell, like where are we? Like, what the hell has just happened in the last four years? You know, you kind of don't look back, you just keep moving forward because you get funding and you keep doing what you're doing, and then problems, and then smashing you through that problem, then the next problem, and da da da da da. So, yeah, it's just been um I can't believe it's been this long. Like, it's the longest I've been employed by any company is my own. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Well, I mean that's probab that's probably a good sign that you're still employing yourself.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Um, so what have you ever thought about when when you were starting it, was there ever a sense of is this a feature rather than a product? So this this pinging out, let's say, open table, they go, oh, we'll try this. Or or is it the sort of the because you're tapping into so many more systems and you're getting more unique?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Before we move down this big long route that we're doing now, it absolutely was a feature. We were a last-minute booking app, that was the niche. Because I didn't want to interfere with the restaurant systems. I saw very early on that they all have a reservation system. Operationally, it's very, very difficult to get them to change anything, nor do they want to, nor really should they, unless it's really, you know, fundamental to the business. So we were a last-minute app, so the app was designed to basically ping out within a mile and see what tables were free, and the restaurants respond like how an Uber driver responds. And that was the initial idea. We got some good traction from that. Um, so that was absolutely more a feature more of than a product, because that's easy to replicate. What the bit is hard to replicate, and that's the bit that I've focused on the most, is how do we get in deep to these systems and basically aggregate the market, which has been a long, long process. Um, to aggregate the multiple systems so that people have more choice, because you know, there's in the UK there's seven or eight systems that all the restaurants use, but only one is bookable on an app. What about the other six or seven platforms that people can't see? So our goal is just to try and bring all these venues together so that people have choice and can use an app whatever city they're in.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Because I mean, definitely having used Open Table, it feels like the choice sometimes can be limited, and you you see the same chains on there again and again. There are probably loads of restaurants you can't discover.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Look, they're they're they're they're like you know, they're 65,000 restaurants. They're a lot. They're huge. And they've got a huge presence in the US, and they're you know, they're doing they've got an amazing presence in London, but you know, like you've got the UAE, you've got Europe, you've got the rest of the UK, you've got the rest of London. There's a lot of other platforms that have a lot of restaurants, like out here, you know, in we're in Dubai now. We launched here uh just over a year ago, you know, uh all the top hotel groups use Seven Rooms. So we partner with Seven Rooms and we can show these restaurants to people. You know, in the UK, all the best sort of bars, wine bars, all these hidden gems use uh other platforms like ResDarian Collins, and we can surface them. So it's kind of showing everything that they don't so that people have choice. It's not taking their business, it's the business they don't work with. So, and there's a lot of that. Not saying they don't have it, but there is a lot of it, right? There's enough venues, and what people I think misunderstand is like they can't see everything right now, and that was the kind of thing that we saw three years ago where I was like, hang on a minute, there's tens of thousands of restaurants that are nowhere to be seen.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

So if we go back to three years ago and you're looking at this, was there always this kind of two-step model in your head of like haven't launched a clear feature and then all of a sudden you're uncovered?

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Yeah. It was like this isn't gonna work unless we do this, but this is gonna be way more fucking painful. But that's that's the gap. That's the gap. You know, I I I didn't know what it was gonna be or what I was getting into. I had an idea, I wanted to make a really cool app. Thought it'd be like 50 grand of my own money just to like build an app. It's not it's uh a million times harder than I thought it'd be. And it's taken so so long, and we've been working as hard as possible to get it to where it needs to be. Um, but all that time you're learning, all that time you're building, all that time you're validating. So yeah, it's a hell of a journey. But we're we're trying to build, I'm trying to build something big that can be used globally. You know, I don't just want it to, it's not I don't want it to be like you mentioned earlier, a feature. It's something that I want people, whatever city they're in, they can use and they get rewarded the more they book on it, and they're also booking across multiple systems, so they're actually having the choice that it doesn't exist today.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

So this kind of is there is there a third phase to this in terms of do you feel that you now have the sort of platform and it's just a case of going country to country and generating awareness? Because it feels like, if I understand correctly, the secret sources aggregating into these back office platforms, which means you can actually surface these hidden gems.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, and and and the customer has the same experience, and the restaurant doesn't have to change the technology, so operationally it's perfect for the restaurants. That's why I was able to come to Dubai on my own, and within six months, all the top brands, Marriott, Hilton, Jameer, Atlantis, all using it because it works with the tech. So yeah, so it works. And you're absolutely right, now the tech's built, but that is not an easy, you can't just get these things, it's hard to do, it takes time every you know to map it correctly to make it all work in the app, and we're still doing it now, like it takes a long time, but ultimately this does make things very scalable because there's zero essentially zero cost to get on a venue, they can self-serve, so it's more you know, yes, there's awareness on the venue side, but then as customers use the app every single week, they'll see tons more venues.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

So I see it is and did you use your patented three-month walk around the city method in Dubai as well?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yeah, I think it's a taxi than walking around because I came in the summer. Yeah. It was hard. Dubai was hard. Dubai was tough.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Why why was Dubai tough?

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Because like London is really great for starting the business because you can find people to help you like how it's meant to work. So, like, you know, I like at one of our first pub groups, um, there was a guy called Craig, and he was just the GM, but he just loved what we were doing. We were such a ragtag product, like it really was. But he just liked it, he understood it, and he just helped us, and he let us go live with 30 of his venues just to test it with people, like things like that, you know, and and without doing like an MVP and trying to, you know, breaking it and trying to build it and testing it in London, Dubai would never have happened because this is one big place, and it's a you know, it's the arguably one of the it's the hospitality capital of the world now. And they've got the biggest and best brands here, and it's very competitive. So like you've got to come in with something working, validated, that kind of takes takes off straight away.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

So it's a nice position. I do think London is is probably the most well, I think we're quite a creative scrappy city, right? It's kind of people people are like people like innovation.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah, they do. They do. It gets knocked a lot, but they do.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

And so if you're if you're looking ahead then, do you have all the platforms that you need?

SPEAKER_00 16:10

No. We've only just started. But we've got quite good ones. Definitely enough to prove concepts, or have proven concepts, and definitely enough to compete and have enough choice for people in the major cities that we're going to operate in, yes. Now we've got our own APIs and our own tech, it's becoming a lot easier to find the right partners to do this because it's a complete win-win for everyone. The reservation platform has another asset, another string to their bow. Their venues get visibility and bookings, they've got another way to bring customers on themselves, and we're giving customers venues that they've not been able to book on an app before.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Yeah, it feels you've you've almost got the two sides sorted, like you go to your sixth, your sixth partner, and you already got five. There's less, there's not too much convincing to be.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

You know what, you know, we know what we're doing. Yeah, like our first partner was one of the big players, but the support from them was amazing, and we wouldn't be around today without them.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

I'm presuming they're also going out with the user's base as well. So now you're coming from rather than idea, you're going, we can integrate with you, we've got users, you should. We can turn you on tomorrow. Like the tech turns on, the customer flow turns on.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Yeah, I mean, like look, two years ago, I'm walking around London handing out flyers to download my app, and I'm behind the counter or with the reservation team showing people how to use it, like going door to door, like it was it was hell. Now I can sit in my study and can turn venues on whatever city they're in, and they can enable it themselves. Like it's getting to that part where you try and nail the distribution, which is the key.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

So, how then do you decide which city to go after? Because it feels like you need to build like a customer base. You can probably turn on the supply of restaurants at any time in any city, but presumably for them to make it worth their while, you need a certain customer base.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Yeah, you do, but every very everywhere's different. Like, you know, London is thousand, like London's thousands and thousands of venues, Dubai has thousands and thousands of venues, but all of the top-top venues are within you know, maybe 25 kilometres, right? So it's very very, very different. So you can be quite dense and still have a product that that works. So every city is very different in regards to that. But the goal, the goal for us is trying to reduce the resources it takes to do that. And given that the venues can enable themselves, you know, it is a chicken and egg, but you get the venues first, then you start getting the customers. Um, you can't get the customers without if you say, Hey, we're launching and there's nothing there, then doesn't so you need a lot of support of buy-in from the top brands initially, which is kind of the legwork that you know myself, my co-founder does to go look, this is what we're doing, this is what we're building, love you to be a part of it. This is the problem we're solving, da da da. This is how it works. And once you get the buy-in from the top brands, again, like you know, the other integration um conversation we just had, it's easier to get other brands as well. It's like who goes first, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

So is it fair to say you kind of you've you've got your new market rollout plan pretty pretty locked in by this stage?

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah, and it just goes easier. Like we can do any city now. It's just resources, you know? And you know, like just owner market, move on, own a market, move on, don't just try and you know 70% of five markets.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

And so then what that's a very nice segue next to what then took you to the UAE? So you were London clearly was your first market, so like owner market, move on, owner market, move on. What made you decide to step into the UAE?

SPEAKER_00 19:53

We had some restrictions. So we had we basically had a test integration, like an MVP test integration to one of the partners, and there was a limitation on that, and I wanted to keep moving, and luckily saw that the UAE was quite untapped, but our partner operated there, and I flew out a week later with my laptop and my phone, and just started cold calling the week before, setting the meetings. Was here for five days, went back home for two weeks, came back for two weeks, da da da just did that for about five months. Um, yeah, just did that back and forth for five months while we were setting up and validating the market and then developing the product, changing it so that it wasn't just London, it was Dubai. So all this stuff going on in the background, obviously, raising funding to see out Dubai. Um, and it was just kind of timing, really, but I also did want to show that we can take it to another place way quicker than we did it in London. London was a big, expensive, long process to get it right, and it was just good to demonstrate okay, actually, if we do want to go to another major city, the tech does work, people do want it, we can do it. Uh, so it's kind of another proof of concept phase, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

And when you're doing these, I mean, it feels like you do you're doing it personally and you're really committed to this test and get user feedback before you before you leap. How are you having these conversations? Are they do you have like a form you or a template you stick to, or just practically for other founders who are thinking about testing new markets?

SPEAKER_00 21:25

How do you think there's like customers or venue side you're talking about? You're talking about actual customers?

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Uh probably the the venue side first, given that's what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Well, the venue side I talk I talk to like as many as I can. Um they've they've made the product. They they're the ones that made it work how it how it did. They're the ones that go, if it works like this, this is what we need. And that's what I've been going and spending all of my time doing for the last few years is building something for them to now connect it with these untapped users. So I speak to them all the time. I won't say it's a four, no, it's Far more like personal than that.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

So for you it's more about volume volume of conversations with the right people in a just a more relationship building way rather than sort of a it's relationship and buy-in.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

You know? It's relationship and buy-in. Because like you need you need, you know, without the venues in the early days, like we wouldn't have been able to try, you know. So it's been a very important part of our journey for sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

How supportive were your investors with that with that shift of focus? What to additional focus to Dubai as well?

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Um well it was the natural next step because we couldn't do any more than we had done in London for that period of time. So it was either like we kind of sit here or we actually carry on proving concept, and I think we can do it on a low amount of money, i.e. me go and just see. And that was really it. So it's not like, and then obviously, as we started to get the big brands on, we started to invest in it. But you know, the setup for us isn't expensive because of the tech that's been built. The tech is the expensive part, but that's a global product now. So launching cities is quite an inner inexpensive thing now because we've found a way to crack the distribution of the vendors, it's then just sort of the marketing, but it's a free consumer app, right? So, you know, if someone books and they invite four people to the booking, there's ways that you bring people into the app, and obviously, the more venues that come on, the more people got choice, the more areas they can use it in. So it does start to grow not organically, but it does still start to grow. So, you know, we've we've found a very quick way for distribution where I don't now need to go door-to-door to venues now, yeah. You know, so they were supportive of it because that's proof of concept. Like the Amble wasn't built just to be a nice to have app in London, you know, that's not the goal. So we're gonna go to another city, prove it out sooner than later, no?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah. Did you call it Amble because you spent so much time walking around cities to get it started?

SPEAKER_00 24:05

No, no, people asked me that. The first name was rubbish, that's why. Um, and actually, the uh I called a massive restaurant group. But it the original product was called Spon Table, like spontaneous table. And I when I I was cold calling like restaurants to show them the MVP and like talk to them about it, and I called uh a guy called James Brown, who's um he's now the CEO of Prezzo, but he was at Brewdog at the time. Uh, you know, still keep in touch. And he was like, really cool business, but that you gotta change that name, or I'm not gonna. So that was why we changed the name. And then we went to like a branding agency, because we had no idea what kind of name to call it, but I just knew I wanted it to be four letters and something that sounded familiar but wasn't used much. And yeah, Amber came around.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

So thank thanks to Mr.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Brown. Thank you, Mr. Brown.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

The uh and okay, so we look so we looked at the bar side. What about the consumer side? So you've you've you've largely nailed the platform better, so have a clear pathway.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Just to be clear, we haven't nailed anything yet, but but we're starting, so it's is yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

May maybe you're you're more layers of the onion down.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

So then on the consumer side, you've click you do have to get mass as well, because presumably your your partners are paying you for access to the site. That's I'm guessing it's how you monetize. So then you've got to bring people in within a certain time frame. I'm guessing the walking around talking to people doesn't work quite as well on the user side. Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

No. You know, getting users is a tough, tough gig. Um, you know, that's why there's so many sort of B2B SaaS products, AI products now, because it's not easy, I'm not knocking it, but it's it's easier to build something that you can sell to a business and have five-pound clients, right? You know, getting consumers interested with like the amount of products that are out there, the I think the thing that you know um we've realized the most, which is why we've put so much like I'm not interested in building a venue system, right? I've integrated that's not a market I want to be in. I want to I want to completely be on the consumer side and make the best, the biggest and best booking app, right? That's the goal. But with things now, you know, like you've got to stay ahead of the curve and future-proof your product and kind of anticipate how people are going to be doing things and what they're gonna want because very quickly you can build something thinking people want it and they don't, or the market changes and like the behaviors change, and it's very hard to keep up with that. So you've really got to like think ahead, but then the main thing is like solving a problem. That's that's really it. You know, the initial product was a cool product, last minute bookings did solve a problem, but for a very small amount. And then I saw, hang on a minute, there are 50 restaurants in this area, but then 10 of them I can see where's the other 40. People don't know that, so it's kind of like we're exposing a problem as well. Do you know what I mean? So it's another challenge, is like, okay, actually educating that this is another way that you can do things and see things that you hadn't seen before, you know. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

And so, how do you go about sort of the the discover? So there's that bigger problem of like flushing out those restaurants for the consumer. You're doing these detailed chats with your partners on the on the bar side. How are you doing your sort of user research on the consumer side?

SPEAKER_00 27:47

We um we have like our the the our product team is our biggest team at at AMBL. Um we try and do as many customer feedback as possible, we'll test with regular users, we'll talk about features with them, um, and I reply to every customer service email. Still. Because no one, no one, like you, you, you, you one big mistake we made in the early days was building things because we thought people would want it. Very costly, very time consuming. And it was fucking painful ripping out stuff that I was like, oh my god, we actually don't need that. But that's the learning, you know, that's the tough part. And now it's like, okay, we we've streamed, we've we've just relaunched the whole app again because it was an MVP that with so much stuff in it that we're like, okay, now we're now you know we've got these global integrations, we're scanning other cities, we need to really do this properly, and all we've got now is an AI chat and a map, and that's it. Because they're the two things that people used, and we're just gonna make them as best as possible. So it's like we stripped back from all the other stuff that was in there and like compounded over time. I mean, it's like you know, the old app was like it was like a house with 50 rooms, and we only use three of the rooms, but you're still paying to keep up the other 47. Like, do you know what I mean? And that was all trying to build stuff thinking that people want it, and that was a big mistake at the start. So talking to users is so important, and you know, they'll they'll really give you the guidance what you need in the same way the venues did, and that's how you get loyalty in the early days.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

I'm curious what what led what led you to this go? Because it feels like you you you're what has made you so user focused? Like I think doing it feels on both sides, like the the the willingness to walk around London to get laws, then a willingness to spend five months testing the wife or doing it, the kind of the being very user focused on the other side as well. Where's that come from?

SPEAKER_00 29:54

You have to I I just don't know how how you can't be. Like I'm trying to build something that people can use on a daily basis. It's gotta be useful, it's gotta solve a problem, it's gotta be you know, you want it to become like a habit, right? And people are gonna do that if it fits in with them and it's easy to use and it solves a problem. So without there's no product then, is there, if if if you're not user-focused? You have to be, you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

But it feels like you're very comfortable with the idea of talking to people, toward people you don't know, getting out there. Whereas I think some founders can be quite comfortable, sort of in their bunker, building the product. I'm wondering where that's come from.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Well, because of I mean, is it a fear of saying people going, I don't like this, or like fear of you know is that is that maybe why do you think? I don't know. Why do you think they do that? Or for you?

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I think it's comfortable. I think sometimes it's uncomfortable exposing the no. I think sometimes people are afraid of just they feel socially like it's a tricky thing to do to go and ask people stuff and get outside the level that you have.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

No, there's a couple of things here, right? So, like, look, I've I think that if there's founders that have built a product from an industry that they know, very different because you know it's going to work, you know you've got the clients, you kind of know what you're building while you're building it and the problems, right? Obviously, we were building it from an industry that we didn't know, something a product that you know, like you mentioned, the open tables and the resis, they exist, but there was a different thing that I saw that didn't exist, and it was how the hell does this work? What do I need to do to make this work? So I can't do that without speaking to customers and speaking to venues and understanding. Like, I'm gonna go and do this, but I need you to tell me what this looks like and how we evolve it, and that's how it's evolved. But you know, you've got to be prepared for people to go, this is like what I mean. We've the app's broken so many times, like honestly, it's it's the biggest headache. Like, it could breaks it breaks some, you know, we've had problems, we've had we were about to launch, and then the payment bank that we just integrated with then stops for a month, like honestly, all the time. That's just part of it. But you know, I remember one guy said to me that if you're not embarrassed by your first product, you've launched it too late. It's so true because our first product was, yeah, you know, great at the time, but then quickly, like, well, okay, this needs some work. Um, and you've got to do it. Like, as soon as you rip that bandit off, then you can actually start to build what people want.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

And I realize that analogy of the house, like, I think a lot of products are like a 50-room house and actually just need three, and it's I think that's definitely a theme I've seen with founders I've coached, is kind of like the thing that gives us most chance of success is actually reducing our focus from four things down to one. Like I went to uh uh talk by someone who did a business called arrival or was involved in arrival, which was doing electric vehicles, and they tried to do four. And he said, I if I could do one thing, I go back in time do one thing, I would do one vehicle. One vehicle, one thing, yeah, for sure. Um and I've and I've seen that a couple times like you strip back your business and go, okay, I've got three product lines, okay. Let's just focus on one. Even if you're taking a slight feel like you're taking a backward step, often you can you can really unlock that growth because everyone's it's just narrow.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

We did it, we had we had like the video content, then we had the discounts, then we had like amble perks. And I just wasn't passionate about that. That's not what I wanted, and it you de you you deviate so much more than you think you are, you know, and it's not and you can't please everyone day one. That's the thing, you can't. So like you've got to make something that a hundred people like, then a thousand people like, then that ten thousand start to use it, and then speak to that ten thousand and just keep trying to grow it like that. But you're absolutely right, you have to. I think it it'll save you so much time and so much cost if you just try and do one thing like the best that there is, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

So, how do you balance? I mean, there's one thing that I was wondering for like, how would you balance that sense of you're building a business and you've got to try stuff and you're responding to user feedback? That would be great if you did X, yeah. No, it's a good question. And then there's this kind of like uh we need to stick on these three like how does that work? I've got I've got a thought, but what what's your view?

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yeah, like you I think if it comes up multiple times, but there's not a lot of things that we're missing now because look, we've got a full team and we're looking at data and we're looking at the product, so you know, and because it's so simple, it's like why why would you add more stuff? You know, um I think it's like separating like a nice to have and a must-have, but is it gonna move the needle? Is pretty much what I ask. You know, that's the only way I would build stuff.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

So let's go back to your example. Like you had all these features that are sort of crept in, let's say like perks.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Where did that come from?

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah, where did that come from? Is that sort of idea?

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Oh, it'd be great if we can do this. Oh, it'd really nice to be do this. Oh, what if this happens? What if they're in this situation? Didn't think about that, and you're just sort of trying to cover every base before you've even encountered the problem. So right now it's like we we we are focused on the best AI and the best map and making it as easy for people to use. That's what we focus on continuously building. If a problem happens, we fix that straight away, or any kind of nuances that happen in the live environment. Because this is the other thing, is like you can build and build and build internally, but you don't know anything until your product's out and live. You've got to get it out, and like even now, like we've we've we had the app for two and a half, nearly three years, just launched our new one 10 days ago. We're seeing great traction, we're seeing people use it, seeing people engage with the AI, but then you're seeing how they're engaging with the AI versus how we were doing it, and then you've got to then you build start building around that, so you've really got to get your product out for sure. First thing.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

So let's say someone came to you today and said perks, let's do perks, what would you say? No, I've tried it. No, then they've done that. I I'm just wondering do you think as part of let's say a startup journey before it gets to scale up, you kind of do need to build 50 rooms to come back to three, or do you think with discipline you could maybe go keep it at the three or max go to like five or six?

SPEAKER_00 36:21

It's hindsight, like I think that's the reason you do this podcast, is I have done so many things wrong thinking it was right. Now I've figured it out it's four years in, and there's enough learnings, right? So I 100% do not do loads of things, just do what you know, and and and just you like you gotta make that one thing work before you start doing everything. It's the biggest mistake we've done trying to do everything to cater, you know, is it was tough. 100%. Like this whole reason you do this for podcasts is hopefully there's gonna be a founder that's just starting out that goes, okay, just own one thing. And even if it's just that that one part they remember from this conversation, fine. It will save them months, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, doing one thing really well. I wish we did that. I wish we did that. I wish I knew the gap and how to do it without having to try and figure it out. You know, I wish I knew how to do it prior.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

So let's say you you some of you are coming in with industry knowledge and therefore they might have a idea what that one thing is. Let's say take your example. How could you have known two years ago that the thing that you are now doing how do how do you know what to say no to two years ago if you go back to yourself two years ago?

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Yeah, you don't know. You must pick on perks, but like No, no, but you you don't. Like, you don't. It sounds good at the time, and you do everything with the absolute best intent, and everything gets signed off, and everything has a thought behind it. You know, you don't just do go and do stuff off the cuff and think, all right, now today I'm gonna do this. Like Dubai wasn't let's go and do Dubai. It was calculated, it was okay, there's an opportunity. Does this make sense? Everything makes sense at the time, but that's that's where you know, the longer you do something, the more you understand stuff, you you do those decisions very differently. So, like we can technically launch in Spain, Italy, Australia now. But there's no way I'm going to because I'm still working on owning these markets, I'm still doing these one thing really well. Do you know what I mean? Whereas before it's like, oh well, I can grow, we can grow. People want us to grow, we can do it. Like, you know, that's an extreme example, but that's the mentality like, let's keep going, let's let's hire people there, let's do it, we can do it. Like, no, we're still trying to figure out things, we're still trying to build it, and and I think you've got to give your I think the biggest thing is giving yourself as much time as possible to figure it out because that's where stresses happen. You know, you can't do that.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

And that's a crime when you're rushing it, you start making different decisions, you make bad decisions.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah, but we did in the early days, like we did. We like geared up for a massive marketing launch, and then the product was delayed six months. You know, what the fuck? So all these things happen, and then it's like, okay, then it comes out, then that breaks, then this person leaves, and we've got to get there, like it's hell, and you only know from doing it, you're got to put yourself in that situation where you know you won't do it again, you know. But it's all part of the learning, it's all part of the journey. And this is again why, you know, investors and VCs look at experienced founders, second-time founders, or people that have been done for a long time because you learn so much during that time. You know, it's hard, it's it's it's it's like sleepless nights, but like this is where you learn that stuff. You know, at what would I ever start marketing before an apps live again? Trying to marry it up. Am I gonna build all these features thinking I've thought about everything? I haven't thought about everything. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like you learn.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

So if if for founders listening, then what's one thing that you think around the topic they could go and do today? I think particular particularly around this idea of like going from maybe from 50 rooms to three, what is quick with something else? What is something they could do today that would be helpful for them?

SPEAKER_00 40:25

What is something they can do today that would be helpful?

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Current founders. Look at your team and figure out who you really need to get to where you need to be. Because staff will make or break your business in the early days. Um and whilst you can have loads of features, you can have loads of people thinking you need stuff covered, thinking you need stuff done, and you don't, it's the same thing. So I think um, you know, really look at who you need. And if they were to come into your office and leave tomorrow, how would you feel? And if the answer is uh, we'd be okay, then you know, ask yourself, do you need them? If it came in, go that would be like a gut shot and we're screwed, then you know. You know? And then bring them in closer. If it's a first-time founder, if it's not just starting out, I would say go and validate as quickly as possible and just do something every day to build it. Don't procrastinate, just get out and do it.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

So, fewer rooms, leaner team, get some new shoes, get on the pavement.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

How you do it, and just get ready to get rejected.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

That subtitle of every of every founder's story ever. This has been really useful, Aaron. Thank you so much for sharing.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

No, you're welcome. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Thanks for listening today. And subscribe if you've got more actual insight from founders who are scaling our businesses right now. And we'll see you next week.