Are You the Bottleneck in Your Startup? | Max Teichert

At some point, every founder becomes the bottleneck.

In this episode of Peer Effect, James Johnson speaks with Max Teichert, founder of Track Titan, about the transition from doing everything yourself to building systems that scale.

Max shares his journey from sim racing to launching Track Titan and explains how founders can stay close to product while avoiding burnout and decision overload. This conversation is packed with practical advice for founders navigating growth and stepping into the CEO role.

You will learn:
 • The signs you're becoming the founder bottleneck
 • When to delegate and when to stay involved
 • Building a defensible startup advantage
 • Scaling decision-making as your team grows
 • Avoiding product complexity traps
 • Making time for strategy as a founder
 • Moving from founder mindset to CEO leadership

If you're moving from early-stage hustle to structured growth, this episode is for you.

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Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The starting point I mean was probably when I was, let's say, three years old, starting to watch F1. Racing's weird in a way that racing games are by now so realistic that you can actually get into real-life racing from games. And I was lucky enough to get skelted from a game to real-world racing. So that was really the the kind of internal kernel of starting something that hopefully democratizes the sport.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

I think a lot of p people think the path success is like a two-three journey, and often it's a five to ten. I think doing something that you love is is is key.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Yeah. Any gaming category booming during COVID was just a moment like the space that I've loved for two decades at that stage is booming and nothing's really changed in terms of accessibility to it, right? People are still struggling to get better. And I thought, hey, how do we turn this coaching knowledge that I had from the real world? How do we turn that into code so millions of people can ideally benefit from it?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

He launched his real-world pro racing career after getting scouted through the Grand Turisma Academy for driving online. Today we're going to dive into when to be hands-on and when to build with team and systems. So, Max, welcome to Purefeffect. Thanks for having me. So before we jump into like systems that scale, we'll come back later. This whole business started in quite a strange way, didn't it? Like maybe maybe let's talk to that. What was your what was the start point?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

The starting point, I mean, was probably when I was, let's say, three years old, starting to watch F1. Right? I'd say if if any of you follow a sport, you're into sports, I think you one day you dream of doing the sport. And ultimately, in racing, you're hit hard pretty well hit pretty hard with a budget that is just unachievable for most people. So I resorted to gaming. And racing's weird in a way that racing games are by now so realistic that you can actually get into real-life racing from games. And I was lucky enough to get scelted from a game to real-world racing. So that was really the kind of internal kernel of starting something that hopefully democratizes the sport.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

It's amazing. How how does how does that happen? There's quite a physical aspect to it as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Yeah, definitely, definitely. I'd say not every sim racer, so racing game player, is automatically a real-life racing driver at that level. But more often than not, that's the case, right? Because the the motor skills, the kind of muscle memory aspect is pretty transferable. So let's say you turn a wheel 90 degrees, whether it's a real-life car or not, right? Can you stand the G forces? Do you, excuse my French, have the balls to drive 200 miles an hour this close to a wall? Very different skill. Yeah. But I'd say whatever gets you there as a kid or as an adult, if you can manage the motor skills, I think the getting your shit together. Can I say these words? Okay. Okay. Getting your shit together is the easier bit to pull off because you're kind of used to the speed as you grow up as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

I mean, I imagine like FIFA isn't probably not quite as transferable between sort of being a FIFA player and then a sort of a high Premier League footballer.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Yeah, you say that what's interesting, we actually looked at building a FIFA product. We actually had built an MVP and also working with Premier League footballers on this. And exactly as you said, right? Let's say flicking a control stick is not the same as actually being a good athlete on the pitch. But you can see there is some transferability the other way around that pro footballers are really good at timing their passes. But that's about it, right? I think that's the transferability timing of passes. Otherwise, you could be amazing at FIFA. But there's no competitive element to those.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

I imagine they being very bad at go-karting, like I am, probably translates to being quite a bad racing driver as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Usually. Sorry about to say about yeah. Depends. Again, it's very interesting. Max Verstappen, um, multiple F1 world champion, said something recently that I think is is great for us as a company, but I think very true that he said that showing skill in sim racing is probably more relevant than in goal cards. So ultimately, if you make it to F1, which is crazy pinnacle of the sport, right, you're good at both for sure. But uh there are people who are very good in sim racing, not so good in carding, and they're really good in real-life cars because the skill is actually a bit closer to that.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

And it and as been shown, like it does help you've got a billionaire for a dad to get into Formula One as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

It it does help, and that's that's why we exist as a company around Track Titan to make the sport a bit more accessible. That look, your billionaire dad will be helpful, but ideally a platform like what we're building can help you get a bit faster on the route to that.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

And now, so before you sort of did Track Titan, you worked in three other businesses as an operator before starting. But like maybe talk me through that a bit.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Uh yeah, so I got super lucky, I think, with the timing and startup opportunities I had. So started as an intern at a fintech in Jakarta, Indonesia, very scrappy, 2016-17. So early days where there was also a lot less regulation. So I think as your first startup experience, that's incredible, right? When it's just about building, when you're the bottleneck, not any kind of regulatory body. Um, then wanted to move back to Europe, uh, went to another consumer fintech in London, and that was very different, but still an amazing experience. Kind of went through an FCA application process, which was painful, but uh a good learning experience, I'd say. And so I was lucky enough to kind of see two or really two and a half companies, one we spun out of the Indonesian one, grow from three guys in a kitchen to post Series A, series B. And I think along the way you make many, many mistakes. You do some things right, but definitely more things wrong. And uh and that kind of laid the foundation, I think, to actually building a company myself. And were you sort of sim racing throughout this period? Uh I was real life racing at that stage, I would say. So I was sim racing till I was 18, and then I got skelted. So there's a formal scelting process that kind of takes you from a game to real life racing. And then once you've tasted that, I think it's very tough to go back to the game. So I do sim race still. I did throw out that process, but uh I was mainly racing in the real world.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

How did you find the time to like combine real life racing with working in sort of what I imagine are quite quite intense startup environments?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yeah, it's it's a good question. I mean, look, uh I'm sitting here having founded a company, so obviously I didn't make it into F1 that made it easier, right? It wasn't a full-time job. Uh but I think the the focus and determination is quite similar. So let's say for racing, you have to go to the gym a lot, go running. Something that I to this day still do just uh to clear my head, right? I think I wouldn't function as a founder, so the rhythm, the focus on physical and mental performance is actually it's not contradictory, if that makes sense. So it never felt like a burden either side to the other.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Okay, so you've got you've got your sort of startup experience, you've got your racing experience, and at this stage you're sort of transitioning to be a coach as well. Well, is that still while you're working in these in these startups?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Transitioning to coach, how do you mean? Coach coaching, like race coaching. I I've been doing that since 2017. So that's essentially if you think about racing, either you make it into F1 or you don't, that means you don't make money. Like grossly overgeneralized, right? There are some racing drivers, not F1 drivers that make money, but it's quite tough. So you go into coaching. And for me, that's that's kind of something I started during uni working for Porsche as a certified instructor. That means, let's say you want to learn how to drive a Porsche fast on a racetrack, I get a Porsche, you get a Porsche, and I drive in front of you or behind you and give you live feedback. Um, that's kind of the way to stay close to the sport without needing to find sponsors, without kind of needing to dedicate the time to take uh take the time out for a professional racing career.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

We should talk after this. I definitely need to improve my uh I don't have a Porsche just to put it out there. You can run just general driving. Yeah. So okay, so you're kind of at this stage you've got coaching skills, you've got business skills, and then it's kind of like what makes you take that jump from there into launching Track Titan?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Yeah, really good question. I think uh as many people would probably say, COVID was uh a major differentiator for me for two reasons. A, I couldn't coach in the real world, so I went back to where it all started, which is playing games at home, right? I remember asking my dad, hey, can you please send me my steering wheel, which I used as a teenager to qualify for this this competition. I got back into it, and the second one just mental space. I think with with anything going on in the real world, it's quite tough to actually find the time and space to think about is this the best use of my time right now? Is there maybe something else I could be doing? Um so mental capacity, love for sim racing, and any gaming category booming during COVID was just a moment like, oh wow, shit, the space that I've loved for two decades at that stage is booming, and nothing's really changed in terms of accessibility to it, right? People were still struggling to get better. And I thought, hey, how do we turn this coaching knowledge that I had from the real world? How do we turn that into code so millions of people can ideally benefit from it? So it's not sort of one-to-one coaching, it's kind of what is like computer-aided. Exactly. It's completely automated. So picture a uh have you used Runner since you talked about running running coaching?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Uh I actually use claw. I I I hack my own runner using claws.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Well then then imagine that product essentially, right? That gives you feedback, certain real-time aspects, certain asynchronous aspects, um, and there is there's zero human element to the actual coaching.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Hmm. What's been the best part about maintenance decision? Because you you're clearly doing like one-to-one. There's I mean, as a one-to-one coach, I the human aspect's quite fun. Yeah. Was it solely the business opportunity that made you think that we can do this at scale?

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Uh it's it's a great question. Actually, if I think about it, I too I forget about this sometimes. The idea initially was actually a coach marketplace for racing, right? So it was the human element. I think it's it was naturally born out of my own experience of I coach, there are other coaches, it's kind of very efficient market, right? How can we help people that want to be coached find a coach? And that got got decent traction, got like 200 weight list signups. But then I thought, uh, okay, what's the opportunity cost, right? How big can this business be? And the company where I was at at the time was doing very well, is doing very well to this day. And I thought this could be a great side hustle and like a good lifestyle business. But quite frankly, I was up for building something that might sound cheesy, but that can re-revolutionize the sport that I've loved since my childhood days. And I think you don't do that with human coaches. I think they play a very important role. Might sound like a hypocrite being one myself, but most people will never be able to afford one-on-one coaching. Right? And uh and ultimately we want to make sure that the 10-year-old kid at home playing the F1 game who has never paid for anything online can maybe spare three quid a month to get the insights an F1 engineer would usually give you.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

So you really are democratizing sport, right? You're going like, okay, initial barrier, you need a billionaire dad. Yeah. Second one, you need a human coach. Exactly. And then you're going, okay, three pounds a month. That fit that flat does fit.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Ideally a bit more, but I think that could be a price point maybe for the the those with the lowest disposable income at some point. I'd say, look, of course, we're a company, we want to make as much money as possible, but there is a place for something almost free that is still paid, that makes a difference between something and nothing. Um more one for the future.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

So how can how can you take something which is if it feels quite gut feel and sort of individual skill and turn it into a process?

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Aaron Ross Powell Racing, you mean? Um I wouldn't say it's gut feel. I'd say I mean in any sport is measurable, right? If you look at football, for instance, basketball, there are entire university branches only focusing on football analytics, for instance, right? The University of Liverpool, for instance, has that like a dedicated I'm not sure if it's an entire faculty, right? But like unis have dedicated uh lecturers and professors just focusing on football analytics. The same goes in racing, and if any sport in the world is automatable, then it's racing, right? Um I don't know if you follow football, basketball, any other ball sport, but they're pretty quantifiable and they're messy. So imagine a race car goes around the same corners again and again and again, right? What changes can it? Driver input, weather conditions, who else is around you, but it's very simply put, it's an easily automatable sport when it comes to insights. Right? Let's say you are always breaking 50 meters too late, because of that you're always in the wall. That's a very obvious mistake, right? In football, I could tell you in that moment in the 43rd minute, you should have done XYZ, but you're never going to be in that situation again. Right? Whereas in racing, you get to that breaking point, and this time you can break a bit earlier. Um so that's kind of why it's why it's the one that is easiest to automate the coaching for.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Actually, the only variable there is like if you have a car in front of you or not, but apart from weather, but uh I can totally see that how you kind of have you have a standard track, you're doing it again and again. Yeah. Your your machine is roughly the same apart from fuel levels. Yeah. Actually, the path you take should be pretty consistent.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Aaron Powell Yeah. Uh or maybe not consistent, but it's a great point, right? For instance, the car gets lighter. So every lap is a bit different, but it's not as different as to come back to the football comparison of you suddenly have completely different players around you, right? Or your other team member is more fatigued. So it's a bit more consistent than any other sport, I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

So almost in the way that someone say that like poker is a better preparation for bit for life and business than chess. It's almost a you you also have the chess equivalent to sport in terms of really interesting question, yeah. It's a great comparison. The smarter person should win most times just because it's it's more predict-like you're only a certain number of outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Yeah, i exactly. And and I think that's why racing can be monotonous to watch, because it's ultimately it's very meritocratic, right? Based on the car and the driver, of course, if you combine those. Whereas football has a ton of noise, right? That's that's the beauty of the game. Like the losing team might score in the final minute. And in racing when someone's 20 seconds ahead, doesn't really happen. Rarely so, right? But uh again, like the the chess comparison is very good. Yeah, it's very down to the player ultimately.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Okay, so I'm I'm sort of understand the business in terms of like you're you I can see how you can do it. Yeah, for you though, as a sort of a as a founder of shifting into this later stage, you know, the the sort of the series A transition from sort of founder to CEO. Yeah. How do you decide what you sort of do personally and then what you turn into a system?

SPEAKER_01 14:48

I think it's it's very founder-driven how we approach that. Um speaking for myself, I I'm a big fan of understanding things really deeply in every part of the company. And you might say that's wrong, right? I totally get that. Like people can agree or or disagree with that. But I try to really get into the weeds because I A enjoy it and I think it gives you credibility as a founder. That it's not just a matter of you guys can handle that sort of vibe, right? And I think that that's kind of something that naturally happens with scale, but I think it's something to be avoided for as long as possible. Basically being super high level. Um I hope that makes sense, right? Feel feel free to challenge it as well. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Well, you know, Steve Jobs was quite famous for being in I think choosing what you're in the detail with. Very true, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

Uh if you're trying to be in the detail with everything, you f you feel like changing your title from CEO to bottleneck. Yeah. But like how how do you how do you decide what you get into? Because a lot of things you could, even at this stage. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

So yeah, so what's what's your uh well uh it's a good like it's a good segue into maybe the differentiation. What I try to be in the details in is what really makes the company defensible. So Or let's maybe start with there are things I only have to do. Let's say fundraising no one else can do. That's just that's how the world works, uh, for better or for worse, right? Um financial model pieces we don't have a head of finance yet, that means I do the financial model, right? Simple that's like a skills-based thing, or just a an investor expects the founder to pitch the company. That's normal. I'd say on the other side, coming to what makes a company defensible is for instance, how do we turn raw car telemetry data into actionable advice? That's kind of that's the beating heart of the company. Of course, there's a bunch of product work, tech work, marketing work around marketing it well, building a beautiful experience around it. But you could almost cynically say in the day of AI, anyone could compete with that at some point. Building a brain or decision engine, as we call it, to turn that data into insights, that's extremely difficult. That's like PhD level level machine learning research stuff, right? Um doesn't mean I can do that, but I try to stay really close to it because it makes a difference between successful fundraise or not. Or it makes a difference between hiring a stellar machine learning engineer or not. And I think that's pretty crucial. Whether I know exactly what ad asset we used in a certain marketing campaign might not make the biggest difference, right? So as much as I'd love to stay close to everything, I think uh that's kind of the the core focus, like key defensibility areas of the company.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

So what what are the most important things to get right and making sure you stay close to them?

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Uh in the company, so which initiatives on top like yeah, the what we call the decision engine. Um I'd say product as a whole, and that might not be the same for me if it was a different company. Ultimately, I as a racing coach obviously have very strong opinions about how to build a racing coaching product. And I think it's uh it's very easy, especially in this category, to build something that people say they want, but that turns into a bit of a Frankenstein product. So our users always say, give me that extra graph and that extra data point. And then you end up with, do you remember these old clunky Windows laptops with like 15 different plugs? If you look at a MacBook today and a Windows laptop from back then, there's a a different design philosophy to that. Again, I'm not saying one is right or wrong, but I think most people just want to get faster, and it's our job to know how to do that in the best way. So product and decisioning.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

It's really interesting. I had a guest on a couple of weeks ago. Um he was talking about something very similar, how his his app, they'd kind of added in sort of 20 features, 25 features, I think, and they'd literally just done a redesign going, okay, we're just gonna focus on these two features. Like as long as we're X on these two features, that's gonna help our customers get what they want.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

So for you for you, it sounds like there are things you get pulled into by interest though. So like being being a coach, being a race car driver, like that's obviously interesting to you. Yeah. How do you decide whether it's important that you should, or just you're interested and you want to? And does it even matter if if you uh if you don't decide?

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Uh it matters a lot, and the decision process is very chaotic, I would say. Um it I think it's maybe it's like a founder's curse, or maybe it's just me being, I don't know, excitable about certain things. I'd say in general, if I'm passionate about something, I'm very passionate. If I'm disinterested, then I'm very not interested in in a certain topic. And and I can see that, and probably one of the biggest challenges is being equally or putting enough effort into the things that I know are important, but might not get me as excited as diving into the depths of telemetry data, as nerdy as that may sound.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Not at all. So what what like what sort of things? Are you going back to like find like for example fundraising like the founders either do or don't enjoy? What are the sort of things you feel like really important but maybe don't excite you as much?

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Yeah, uh I think fundraising is is exciting if you speak to the right investors. Because it's like the ultimate validation, right? If you find the ones that say yes, it's like the the biggest high ever, but it's a grind to get there. But then it's almost you you can gamify it quite a bit, right? You say, This is how many I want to reach out to today, and if some get back, you like it it's being hit in the face with a brick all the time, but it's like it's repeatable and certain in a way, either you get a yes or a no, right? Or people ghost to you. I'd say the uncertain topics, the ones that are never urgent, those are probably the most problematic ones for me. So let's say strategically important topics that we should we should do them one day sort of thing, you know, but not next week and also not the week after. But then suddenly two years go by and it's like, oh shit, we never touched that one. Um which is not the yeah, I'm I'm thinking of an example. Um if if you think it makes sense to go through one.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

No, I I I think uh this kind of like urgent important but not urgent is a really difficult because particularly with a founder, you are if you're someone else's operator in the edge of your business, someone goes, This is important, yeah, they'll give you a timeline, you'll get it done. Yeah. As a founder, you're the one setting that timeline. So it's like in six months' time or a year's time, push through this, yeah. It's very hard to get that to go to the top of your to-do list.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah, very true. I mean, in in a way, investors can act as that timeline pusher, but I don't think it's their job ultimately, right? It it should come from within. It's our job to build the right company and ask for support where where needed. So whilst they they can give you a nudge, I don't think it's how the relationship should work. It's not like the border, the investors are my CEO ultimately, right? They're they're there to support, not to guide the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

I mean, this is I imagine it's like when you're coaching someone in a car. I think there's something where coaches help because actually having that reflection, there's a degree of accountability. Yeah, yeah. It's not it's not to your investor because I don't think is still your business. It's not your investor's business. Yeah. Is there something similar in for like for when you're teaching someone to a car? There's stuff that's sort of important but not urgent when it comes to improving as a driver?

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Uh definitely, but like uh come back to come back to the point the comparison things like I can tell you what to do, but You need to define the goals if that makes sense. Some people want to beat their personal best lap time, some people want to be consistent, some people want to go drifting, very different goals. Like, like it's not my job as a coach to tell you what do you enjoy the most. Same as for an investor to say, this is the thing you should focus on, right? Um, or what's the vision of the company? I think that can only come from you. Uh repetition is one big one, right? Like what we see is with our users as well. People have a strong desire to go faster, but some are just not willing to put in the work, right? And there is often no hack to getting faster. Of course, our job and the product is supposed to kind of make you as fast, as fast as we can. Uh, but with a lot of it, it's just practice, right? It's creating that muscle memory of how do you come on and off the brakes? And that just takes time. Um, so that's maybe never urgent, but super crucial to build that over the long term.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

I mean, taking it back to the running kind of example, is this kind of like zone two and zone five training? Like when I was younger, I only have to do zone five running because I've got like a stretch. But actually, I've learned is you need to do a like probably 80-90% zone two, which can feel boring. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, is it sort of the same for driving?

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Very much so. And I think especially if we do it in the virtual world, people tend to kind of approach the limit from the top, so they crash, crash, crash, and that sometimes you get a clean up in, which of course you can't do that in the real world, right? But because of that, people don't get into rhythm. And I always say, hey, approach it from like start driving at 70%. It might seem dead slow, but otherwise you're never gonna get into rhythm. And you can say it again and again and again, and most people still don't do it. Um, it's just like this this human urge of I think almost not embarrassing yourself. As stupid as that sounds, I don't think it's valid, but I think that's the the human nature side of it, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Yeah. Well it feels like you've can almost got two systems going on here. That's you've got your product, which is sort of automating and improving a a skill. How how might you go about the same thing as a founder? So you're moving into this sort of Series A CEO position, it's a different skill, it's a new skill. Yeah. How can you apply the same sort of learnings?

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Very good question, a good comparison to the product. Um I I think one thing we do really well on the product side is getting rid of all the noise of all feature requests and saying the only thing that really matters is telling someone the most important thing to focus on at any moment in time. That might sound simple. It's incredibly difficult to actually isolate that mistake. Because there's a lot of causality behind, let's say you make this mistake, which causes this mistake, which causes this mistake, like what do we actually tell you, right? And I think the same applies really well to company decision making. To say, let's say we're not growing fast enough a week, right? Like, why is that happening? Well, because we didn't do well on the marketing side. Is that really the case or is it a churn problem? It's almost, if I think about a company is almost like an endless decision tree and just cogs feeding into each other and isolating the true root cause and doing that rigorously, I think is is the ultimate CEO skill. And to do that either by by introducing frameworks, by calling it out, but no matter how you approach it, I think the over makes sense, like why I think the the start finding that starting point however you do it is probably the most fundamental aspect.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

So how do I mean practically how do you do that? Because I know nobody knows about coaching, but I often with the coaches thing you do, like you're trying to get to the root cause of the problem. People look at you, oh, this is my problem. It's like actually that's not your problem. Like this thing over here is leading to this, this, this, and this. Yeah. And until you identify that, you're often solving the symptom. Practically, for you guys, when you're like trying to dig deeper into what's the online problem, how how do you actually do that in a way that other founders might be able to copy?

SPEAKER_01 25:52

How do I do it specifically or us as a team?

SPEAKER_00 25:55

You, you and as a team.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

I I can tell you how I'd like to do it and how I do it terribly right now. I think the the main mode of doing it is probably just jumping in and being like, guys, that doesn't make sense. Think about this. And then sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong, but we get to a solution in a way. But that's very opposite of the intended coaching approach, probably that that you would probably kind of encourage someone to take. And I'm I'm trying to get better at it. I think it's better than let's say four years ago when we started the company, but light years away from where it needs to be, and that's also a matter of impatience. I think sometimes it's valid. Let's say when uh in a group discussion you get kind of consensus thinking. At some time, uh at some point, you as a person or maybe as a founder, especially, you just lose it and want to jump the where you want to jump in. Um but I think yes it's about maybe having the patience and guiding someone to that solution or to another solution. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

I mean I I think where I've where I've come to on this is that if you can focus on fewer things at the top, you then create more time to focus on things more deeply. And often taking that first decision, almost like saying with the platform, like if you can identify the one thing, people often try and do too many things in their businesses, they've got too many projects, too many initiatives. And actually, if you simplify it, you then create the space to go, oh, we can really drive into this. You then don't go down the wrong path, and therefore you create even more time again. So it becomes this very kind of virtuous cycle of just space creation. Whereas a lot of people For yourself as a founder, you mean for yourself as a founder and also the gift of your team. Because if you're if you're stopping them from going down paths they don't need to go down or do work they don't need to do, actually that's an enormously empowering.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Yeah, definitely. And and maybe related, I think a big thing is actually visibility when you need it. And by that I don't mean I think some founders are quite paranoid about needing to know everything that goes on in the company. I think that's the the wrong motivation. But um as an example, we we had five new joiners in January, kind of grew from 10 to 15, which percentage-wise is a pretty big jump, right? And naturally lots of questions, lots of ideas. And in many cases, there is a lot of context that wasn't well documented, that should have been communicated better, that saves everyone time. So I think being able to almost spot these opportunities, again, however you do it various ways, right, which we could talk about. But I think being able to say, hey guys, like don't waste your time on that. We've already tried something three years ago, or uh on the more positive side, I know someone who could help you with that, right? So it's maybe kind of connected to what you said, creating space and time for yourself to to help in these cases, but you need to know in the first place that they're there to be helped with, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:38

How does that feel at the moment? That's quite a big jump, sort of that's 50% your business group, 50% into headcount wise. How does that feel as a as a founder?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Great. I'd say positively overwhelming in most cases. And not really good, I'd say we uh we didn't we effectively had no commercial function before, and now we do. So it's just great uh to see new guys and girls come in and and just firing on all cylinders. But as you can imagine, it's also chaotic to an extent, right? It's like it there is there is this new ambition of ambitious people coming in, wanting to do things and almost a company that's not fully ready. I think to an extent that's normal in companies, that's always the case. Um so I think we're not doing badly, but could definitely be a bit less chaotic sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Because interesting, when you were listing out the things before that you really focused on as things sort of the commercial side didn't appear in that in that list. Yeah. Is that because it's not it's not as important? Do you think the pro having the right product kind of trumps everything?

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Pro it's a bit less defensible in the long term. And the bigger reason is probably a lack of personal interest or not as much interest about the commercial side. It's very much like the the product always has a bit of an artistic side to it. Whether someone likes it or not, right, you've created something. Like I like to say I love building Lego for no extrinsic reason, right? You could say it's a waste of time, I still love doing it. It's like you look at something, I find less pleasure on the commercial side to say, look, we've grown a lot. I think it's something to be proud of, but I thought it kind of it doesn't satisfy kind of the same the same aspect of you.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

But it's interesting going back to your driver of democratizing motorsport. Yeah, you kind of need to grow it to democratize it. Totally, totally, yeah. So it just feels like there's a slight do you think it's something you learn to get interest in, or do you think it's something that someone else has to take?

SPEAKER_01 30:36

I I I I mean I I study management at uni, right? I definitely have an interest in in commercial topics, but I'm even more interested in the product side. Right. So I I do it the same as I write investor updates, which take ages, right? But I think it's it's something that I see the value in, so I do it. It's a matter of discipline, but I think I'm not drawn to it as much as maybe thinking about how can we turn this edge case on a certain track into a bit of advice? Right. Um so I hope that makes sense. Like I don't want to sound like I'm not doing it, right? But maybe with less passion, but still a lot of drive behind it.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

But does that mean there's someone else within your team who it feels like that is something which is maybe not defensible but important?

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Very important, yeah. Yeah, that that's why we hired uh four new joiners specifically on the commercial side. And more people on the tech side as well. But that's exactly it. A performance marketing lead, a chief of staff with a strong commercial background to help with topics like this. Um for that exact reason, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Is there any other topic that you feel that you've uncovering as you're growing that's kind of is important but less interesting?

SPEAKER_01 31:41

I think uh less interesting is a wrong word. I I find, for instance, brand management and brand marketing extremely interesting, but it's very tough for me to spend time on because it's tough to see the results. I think it's it's for any person less satisfying when there are long feedback loops. And for me, I'm used to feedback loops of a hundredth of a second in a race car, right? It's like you do something, you spin, you crash, or you don't and you do something well. So I think to think about initiatives like uh like long-term brand campaigns, which don't cause a spike in signups tomorrow, like I know that's super important, but I think it's tough for me to spend time on it. Or spend money on it for that matter.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

So there are certain like you're learning there are certain types of work that you're instinctively drawn towards that probably go right back into motor racing.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Pretty much, yeah. Short feedback loops, uh kind of multi-central experiences, uh, and anything that's probably stressful in a positive way.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Like fun, that's probably why I like fundraising, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Exactly. Some laps they're just like Yeah. But uh you know it's gonna be a hundred lap race, you'll probably win at the end, but it's gonna be some of those laps are not gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Or you're gonna crash, right? And the car is gonna burn. But in a way, it's there's a lot of adrenaline in it. Um that's probably the difference between fundraising and maybe long-term brand marketing.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Let's take short, I mean not to hammer this marketing or commercial point, but let's say performance marketing. Yeah. That feels like if you think about things that you enjoy, it's quite a short sort of success or failure loop. Yeah. It's relatively big budget, so you're kind of seeing like you are potentially crashing if it doesn't work. Yeah. There's a clear outcome from it, you can iterate over time. It feels like it ties quite neatly into sort of an in a type of job challenge initiative that would excite you.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah. De definitely more so than other aspects. But but equally it's it's coming to the artistic point, it's maybe not as pure as growing through a really strong organic brand. In a way, so there's maybe some conflicting forces there.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Not as pure. Yeah. So you've got you feel you you feel you feel like it's not the the product's not speaking for itself, it's just you're people are being lured into it?

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Uh you could say the same about the the brand side, right? Like it's not about the product speaking for itself, but like I I did a lot of uh brand management courses at uni on a very academic level, which I think is is fascinating, right? How you can study that topic. And I know there's a there's a craft behind it, and I just think it's amazing, especially on the consumer side. I think any B2B company for me is extremely boring in in most cases. Like building a consumer brand that people really associate with has something magical to it beyond the product just working in a way. So I think they go hand in hand. That's that's why it's not just product or marketing, it's like this type of work, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

I'm just curious about the the word of pure. I'm just interested.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

What what's what's sense behind that for you? Uh uh that's a good question. Uh I think something that feels a bit magical to people, which I think most performance marketing campaigns don't. It's like you see an ad, it interests you, maybe it triggers you emotionally. So maybe I'm a bit cynical about it. I think it can be done well. But I think like you could talk about like performance marketing, brand marketing. Brand marketing could also be a piece of content that you also reuse for performance marketing, right? But I think let's say building a brand in the widest sense, the result is much more exciting because it could like creates long-term loyalty, like a sense of allegiance. That that's what I meant by pure. Whereas an ad is almost today it's this ad, tomorrow it's another one. Then someone's seen it too much, so we'll replace it. And so there's less longevity maybe with it.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

So I'm getting quite a strong sort of idealism here.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

It's kind of like democratizing, as well. But yeah, you know, no, I like it. It's definitely idealistic, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

But it feels like quite a strong driver for you, this this idealism. Sorry? It feels like a strong driver for you, this idealism. Yeah. Where where do you think that came from?

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Uh probably multiple factors. Um I think if if if you think about like how the company was born, there's definitely a sense of wanting to democratize something that's fundamentally broken. Right. If you look at the F1 grid, like I don't want to talk like these are incredible racing drivers, right? But as you said, having a billionaire dad definitely doesn't hurt in a way. And the the ratio of ridiculously wealthy parents for F1 drivers is is absurd if you think about it. Right. So it's definitely an idealistic view of that. Like, I mean, this is a VC backed company with venture scale ambitions, right? Like, I want to make money with this as well. But I think what gets you out of bed, especially on the shit days, is not that. Never. I think I know a lot of founders who start great initially successful companies by saying this market is interesting, it's directionally correct, this is the opportunity, the technology is there, let's build it. And that that can absolutely work. There's nothing wrong with that. But maybe the idealistic side to come back to the question is driven by why I think this company should exist. And that then maybe drives the work in it as well.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

I mean, I think a lot of people think the path success is like a two-three year journey, and often it's a five to ten. So I think doing something that you love is is is key. Yeah. What what is one thing to finish on then? What is one thing that you think founders back to listening to this episode should be going to do?

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Uh uh like one very specific thing I do, which I think helps or will help this type of founder who's very agitated and wants to be in the weeds is reserving dedicated strategy time. And strategy time can mean company strategy, but also what systems you put in place for yourself and a company. Right? So I do this every six weeks on a Saturday because I've tried everything during the week and it's never urgent enough, right? So you push it, you push it, you push it. Whatever your your mode is can be on a weekend, can be in an evening. Maybe you've got better discipline than me to actually do it in the slot that you kind of envision for it. Uh to reserve time like that's pure thinking time, which can start with looking out the window and let it come to you, but also uh maybe another another version of doing it can specifically say, hey, these topics that are important but never urgent, what should we do about them? And that could be prioritizing my own time, right? Or building a system around that, or a strategic internal company topic.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

And so how long would you reserve for this?

SPEAKER_01 38:21

Five hours.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Five hours.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Yeah. And always in a different location that is not your office.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Very nice.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Yeah. Could be a pub, could be a cafe, could be someone else's office. I sometimes go to a VC office of one of my best friends, just a change of scenery, which sounds very I don't know, I think it's maybe been said in a hundred different ways, but I think it it is really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

And in this five hours, what does that five hours look like for you normally? Diff different every single time.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah. I think that's that's the beauty of it. I don't come with an agenda. Sometimes it's very obvious what I'm gonna do, right? Because something has become a bit more urgent, maybe. Um, but sometimes just letting your mind wander a bit and and think kind of what's on your mind. Um, this is something I discuss with my my own culture as well. Right, what could the next session be about? Um, and then spend the day. I'm a big big fan of letting the mind wander, and I don't think it happens anywhere near enough in a workday at least.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

And the outcome from those five hours, you're going with like maybe a sense we're going to talk, think about, maybe or not. Are you just capturing your thoughts around what you want about, or are you trying to generate solutions?

SPEAKER_01 39:28

There's always an output. Like very often something I'd share with the team as well. So this might be for for us, for instance, we build a platform that cultures racing drivers, and there is a ton of different segments from amateurs going carting with their mates to F1 drivers to a hundred different sub-segments, and that's all always been clear in my head, or so I thought, just taking time to actually map that out, and you'd be amazed by how many things are not clear to the team that user founders just think are the most obvious things in the world. Just mapping out the space, right? And why do we start with these people and not these people, and what's the strategy behind it? And so that was a mirror board, for instance, and that that's key for me, I think, that there's like a tangible output that, yeah, coming back to the the Lego piece, maybe something to look at, something to yeah, not take in your hands, but you get the idea. Yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Well Max, there's I I like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Whatever your time frame is, I think it's very personal, depends on the company as well. But yeah, uh, on a recurring basis. And don't skip it, which I do sometimes, which is not good.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Yeah. Well Max, thank you so much today. This has been fascinating. We've got we've gone all over the place. Yeah. Not almost like a bad race road, but I think that's been a really interesting chat. So I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Yeah, thanks for the questions. It was fun.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Such a good episode with Max today. As ever, if you enjoyed it, hit subscribe on whatever platform you're listening or watching on. Join us next Monday for a Peer Effect post bag with Freddie, or following Wednesday for another founder episode. As ever, drop us any questions at hello at peerffect.com. And thanks for listening and happy scaling.