Peer Effect

Separating Identity from Business and Building Boundaries as a Founder, with Sean Campbell

• James Johnson • Season 3 • Episode 35

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Has your identity become wrapped up in your business?

Setting boundaries and separating your identity from your business could be the first step to building a successful business sustainably.

Sean Campbell, Co-Founder & CEO at Cascade Insights, has navigated this very issue for the past 25 years and has learned through the ups and downs of running two businesses. 

Together we unpack:

  • How to separate your identity from your work.
  • The importance of delegating and creating space for your team.
  • Why it's important to expose yourself to information you disagree with.

For more, follow Sean Campbell on LinkedIn to learn more about his current business, Cascade Insights.

More from James:

Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com


Speaker 1:

I think that gives you a really interesting perspective. I think when you get to have a second business, especially when you've invested in for a while, you know it's one thing. If you're constantly flipping businesses, or that guy you meet at a networking event who's like I've owned four businesses, You're like over what period of time? 18 months? I'm like I don't know if the word own is what I think of when I hear that. And I think if you meet an entrepreneur and they're all unicorns and rainbows, either they're not capable of talking about the tough times which is fine, uh or they're somehow oblivious to the fact that they must have happened, because I think they happen to everybody who owns a business at some point.

Speaker 2:

I have this idea of kind of like everything coming in twos and it's kind of like the second business in that time and you get that you pair up your second child differently. What have you learned about sort of running your business differently on the second time?

Speaker 1:

Oh gosh, if I think about the stuff that immediately comes to mind, one is me and the business aren't intertwined. I mean there there's no business owner who doesn't wake up occasionally in the middle of the night going I wish I'd done that differently. I mean, I haven't met one yet. I mean maybe there's one, but I I don't know who they are. But that's different than having kind of your identity wrapped in it. So one big thing is that you know my identity isn't wrapped up in the business success Most first time business owners. That's when I mentioned that like ego creation, deflation factory thing. You know it's the sine wave of the business, is the sine wave of you, you know, and I think you have to find a way to separate those two and so that's, that's one thing. Another thing is I is I delegate like crazy.

Speaker 1:

In the second business, you know, I used to be so like if I thought I could do it better, 1% than somebody else, it felt like it was important that I do it because that 1% might make the difference. And it's like no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not the right way to do it, not that I'm delegating to people who are going to do it worse and it's like no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not the right way to do it. Not that I'm delegating to people who are going to do it worse, but I just I'm much better at just starting my week by thinking what can the team do versus what I can do. Like that's where my head is in the whole first part of the week, like how can I make sure the team is productive and they are doing what they need to do and how can I delegate things? And I know, in the first business I was like kind of in a little bit of a hero mode, you know for sure. You know, in terms of what I would focus on.

Speaker 1:

I think. Another thing I've done differently for sure is there's this quote in a HBR article that bad managers say, what can I do to help you do your job? And good managers say, what do you need to do your job better? And I'm definitely more the second. Now, I don't get in there and paddle with somebody, and yet I think everybody here thinks I'm really helpful and supportive. I'd like to think that, and I think they do, but I don't do other people's homework for them. I'd like to think that, and I think they do, but, but I don't, but I don't do other people's homework for them. You know, um, I've tried to run like a little more of an adult company that way. You know, we respect each other's contributions but on the other hand, we also respect the fact that people will get their stuff done. Uh, and I think that's that's another thing. And maybe the last thing I'd say.

Speaker 1:

I brought this up when I was on a panel at a university Well, the university I'm an adjunct at, at Fox and they had us come in and talk about like, what do you wish you knew? When you were in college, some kid asked me a question. College students, I think ask guest lecturers a lot. This is not a diss on it. I just I think it's an easy one for them to ask, like sure is a lot, this is not a diss on it. I just I think it's an easy one for them to ask, like what's your day-to-day like? Which sometimes can generate a pretty boring answer. Right, because my first answer was like well, I answer a lot of email, I'm in a lot of meetings. I mean, my head just wasn't in the right place, you know what I mean To answer that. And I said, well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me get at maybe something I think you're asking right, like how's my day-to-day different now than maybe before? And I said the biggest difference maybe between me in the second business and the first business, to tie it into your question. This is what I was getting at when I answered.

Speaker 1:

It is when a problem presents itself, I don't immediately go everybody on board. I don't immediately go everybody on board. Let's fix this today. Like you know, time is independent must fix right. The very first thing I do is go how did we get here? Because unless I figure out how we got here, it's going to happen again and we're never going to solve it and I think a lot of first-time entrepreneurs they're so afraid of it not working that they just don't give themselves that beat right. To be like wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, five minutes isn't going to change the world. You know what I mean? Like five minutes is I just need to figure out how we got here first, right, and then we'll spend all afternoon solving it if we have to.

Speaker 1:

I should share one other thing between the two. I think everybody who owns a business is in a weird position where your last performance review was maybe when you had your last real job. Classic two by two quadrant grid in a book called the Hard Thing About Hard Things Great book, and literally every time I open it up on my Kindle it's always on that page. And the two by two grid says a bunch of stuff, but one of the quadrants says you decide against the company and you're right, and what the quadrant basically says is no one's going to come and thank you, and I think in the first business I kept trying to get somebody to thank me when I decided against the crowd and I was right, because it takes a lot of effort to do that and I don't care anymore, if that makes sense, right? It's not that I don't care, care I just, I just don't care. It's like if I'm right, I'm right, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Speaker 2:

And I'm going to be okay with that. It feels like first business is quite ego-led, it's quite responsive, it's quite people-pleasing. It's kind of you're just so attached to it that actually it drives a whole range of behaviors that are not necessarily you're fully actualized self. They're a bit more kind of childish, a bit more sort of heroic, like which is, which again is quite a childish hero no, no, yeah, I don't.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, totally it was the hero's myth, right, you know james campbell and you know all that stuff, right, like I mean, like I was going to dive in and save the day, but, but keep going, yeah, but I think what's quite interesting is this idea that actually just taking this step back, it feels like it's feels like it's more the human than the chimp responding.

Speaker 2:

It's your adult self distancing yourself. It's about creating space for the team. It's about taking a moment to reflect. It feels like a very different start point to start the journey, and one which is like a more measured, contemplative adult approach.

Speaker 1:

I think when you're an entrepreneur, in the beginning you're just like you're just rolling around in the cage trying to get it done. You know what I mean and, to be honest, you need a little bit of that in the beginning. You need a little bit of that righteous indignation that you're going to change the world right, because it's hard to get the world to listen to you in the first 12 to 24 months of being an entrepreneur. So there's a little bit of that that, I think is survival instinct.

Speaker 2:

I talk about this. I do like the phases survival phase versus scaling phase. Actually, I think in the survival phase you say a bit of chimp can be helpful. It's just as you move into the second phase that can be quite detrimental to your team if you're still rolling around chucking things at people trying to survive when everyone else is trying to be. How do we plan? How do we grow Right?

Speaker 1:

And I'm sure you've heard this, given what you do for the day job. There's that whole like wartime, peacetime CEO thing, right, which I haven't ever really liked because I feel like it's one of those things that assumes you can't phase shift between the two. That's when people talk about it, but I think there is something about being able to recognize there's a time for both right, and people who can phase shift between the two probably are around for longer at the end of the day.

Speaker 2:

Well, I wonder. I mean it feels this idea of separating your identity from your business is a good first step to all the other things that you mentioned, because if your identity is tied to your business, you are much more likely to respond emotionally to things going wrong. You're much less likely to be able to take a breath. You're much more likely to be like, responsive and try and fix things quickly because, like, oh, I'm looking bad. What gave you the insight that it'd be a good idea to separate your identity from your business, and how practically did you go about it?

Speaker 1:

Pain. It's hard to stay in chimp child land. I think part of it's pain because you don't want to be that guy. You don't want to be that guy where all of who you are is this thing. You miss out on relationships, your team probably doesn't like you as much as would be more reasonable to assume. You know there's life impacts. You know how much time it takes to always be reacting that way. You know, once I put everything on that, I reasonably can, it's time to leave it up to somebody else. At the end of the day and I think that's important as an entrepreneur, because at some point you're at the top of the food chain, even if it's a small food chain, there's nobody to complain down to.

Speaker 1:

There's a scene in Saving Private Ryan which I won't iterate all the way through that famous movie, where basically Tom Hanks' character is asked about the mission that they're on and they try to get him to complain about the mission and the of the scene is I don't complain down to you Right, and so it's a great scene. It does a great job of iterating that whole dynamic. So, uh, you need somebody to go to with your troubles, you know, and your successes, and you need something that's going to settle you, you know, and that that's faith for me, you know. So that's a huge piece of it, Um, but anyway, so that's, that's faith for me, you know. So that's a huge piece of it, Um, but anyway, so that's, that's definitely. Those are some of the things that led, that led the change, you know, overall.

Speaker 2:

It sounds like almost like a religious shift, for you changed your view of that higher power, changed your view of how you should be as a, as a higher power in a business.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's a good way to put it actually, and it wasn't like I had godlike aspirations, it was just a more distant relationship, so it was easy for me to just be the guy in charge all the time, and that's basically the shift to a large extent.

Speaker 1:

And then there were a lot of micro decisions along the way in the second business too. That helped, you know, drive that along. But I think fundamentally there was just a decision that I just I want to do it differently this time and I get a second chance to do that.

Speaker 2:

One of my clients actually took that a step further. There are almost three people in a business, or three parties. There's a temptation to think of yourself and your business as like one identity, and sometimes then people submerge their team into that as well. So it's kind of like all my team represent me as well. So there's actually three parts. There's kind of like there's you, there's the business and there's the team and the team aren't the business and the business aren't the team. I mean, they're clearly a very important part of it, but actually separating that into a third component allows you even a bit more distance again it's.

Speaker 1:

It's a really good point you raise. Actually, the team is kind of an extension of you slash the company, so then you treat the team a certain way. That's probably not appropriate because they're kind of this extension of this ego piece of it. Right, I vividly remember a story. Had somebody working for me in the aughts in the first company. I'm not proud of this story. I mean client Microsoft. They're still an account. We worked with them for forever since 1999, across both companies.

Speaker 1:

But the client gave us something I don't know if it was a hat or it was like something I don't know what it was and we were going to go to an event and we were supposed to wear whatever it was. It could have been maybe like a polo, maybe it was a conference, I can't remember what it was, but it was something like that right and our role. We were supposed to wear the thing and I had somebody reporting to me who looked at me and goes some version of like well, I don't know if I necessarily believe in Microsoft enough to wear this. You know, like there was some discussion about that, like I think the employee just wasn't as bought into whatever they were selling and I remember turning around and saying, yeah, you're going to wear it With that kind of tone, like you know what I mean, like you know we're going to do this, we represent the company, right, and it's funny that story still sticks in my head.

Speaker 1:

It's like 20 years ago. I would never do that now, but I know where that's coming from. That's coming from back then me kind of wrapping it all together into one big bubble. And to what you're driving at, some people just never grow out of that bubble. And to what you're driving at some people just never grow out of that. I mean, they don't.

Speaker 1:

You know, you crack the culture on some companies and it's almost, it's almost cult. Like, right, nobody, nobody ever grew up. And I would hope that would be what somebody would say about me. Like, I mean, there's things. There's things you hope somebody says when you finally put down, you know what is it? The sword, the marching baton, the microphone, you know whatever it is. When you, you know mic drop at the end of the career, right, I would hope somebody says you know he matured, you know he's not the same guy. He was 25, 26, 20, 30 years ago. I sure hope they say that, because I think I have, but I don't get to judge that we can do a straw poll of your team after this.

Speaker 2:

We'll send it Right, exactly, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And it's rare to have somebody around you that long. You know what I mean in an employer relationship. You know that would know you that long.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, because one of the things you often talk about as founders is this kind of like their success, but don't talk about happiness. And I wonder where this approach of like separation has also led to both increased happiness for you, but increased happiness people around you outside the business oh yeah, 100 110, I mean the.

Speaker 1:

the reason I'm being short about it is the answer is yes, I think everybody. I mean I could give you a longer set of rationales, but I would just say yes, everybody probably notices there's a difference and they all benefited from it.

Speaker 2:

I think one of the things that we have found that is so close to success we forget about that. It feels like you've had a very sustainable, like you've been in the same business for 25 years. That is something you've sustained for a long bit of time. You sustained it with your family intact. These are sort of unusual markers and therefore it feels like this shift of approach and this kind of maturing as an entrepreneur and creating this space feels like quite a key part to this sustainability and success.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I would think so and, to be clear, part of the reason I went through that transition, with two business partners shifting, is I've had two businesses, one of which I grew and sold, that I had for six, seven, eight years, and then I've had this one since then. But that's just. You know, that's me just trying to be real, like it's not a single business for 25 years, but it's 25 years of entrepreneurship. Um, yeah, I would have burnt out and I'm hesitant to say this.

Speaker 1:

Uh, people can work insane number of hours and still stay married and their kids still think they're great and whatever I, I, I I'm going to drift definitely into totally subjective territory, but I think if you work an insane number of hours and you're solely focused on the business, to what you're hinting at it's not just you that has the negative consequences.

Speaker 1:

Maybe you never hear about them, maybe you blissfully go through life and never hear that people wish you were around or about the things you missed. But I guarantee, if you're that intense about the business and wife most days, you know, uh, especially now post COVID, where I hardly ever travel, and that that's not because of a COVID thing, it's not because, like, I don't want to get on a plane or anything like that. It's just things changed. You know, it's even less likely that you need to go to a client site than it was in years past. And so, um, you know, many weeks, five days a week, I'm up there and like, what are we doing for lunch? Family Talk to Ryan, talk to Josh, talk to Kim, pet the dogs you know, because also for me, it's not just about the time.

Speaker 2:

It feels like who's showing up, it feels like version one. That kind of responsive, ego-triggered version then probably bleeds through into other parts of your life as well. So even even even you work the same amount of time, it just feels like you're practicing better responses and more healthy responses and just better at boundaries, which which flows through to everything. So it's not, it's not purely about putting the hours I still put lots of hours in. It's it's kind of version of you that shows up throughout your life, because who we are at work is kind of who we are. We're learning the same habits that we demonstrate in our personal lives and vice versa.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, you know the boundaries are huge. By seven o'clock, kim and I were just not talking about the business at all and what I will say is to somebody who's listening, keep in mind that's when things aren't even that great. You know what I mean, because you can have a season where it's harder. Right, you know sales are down a little bit, employees driving you crazy, can't hire somebody, you know, project just went sideways. I mean, it's not always a box of chocolates, right, and like, even on those days, nope, and to your point, that's a boundary setting thing, right, you have to be able to. You have to be able to do that.

Speaker 1:

I would honestly tell people if they're on the entrepreneurial journey and somebody says to you you can't set boundaries, I would full stop and figure that out, because if you can figure that out kind of what I think you're driving at, that ring fences, a whole bunch of other problems but if you are unable to set boundaries as an entrepreneur, that would be the first thing I would go fix and that creates a toxicity that you honestly don't want. I mean, there are entrepreneurs who make their whole life that way, right, and then when they finish their biography, we read their kid's biography and they're like Dad was an idiot, you know. So maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but there you go.

Speaker 2:

I think, to be honest, if you read any kid's autobiography, they'd probably say Dad is an idiot. I think, no matter what you do as a dad. Well, this is true.

Speaker 1:

This is true right Till they read the biography of their kid, but thankfully most children don't write biographies because that would be scary.

Speaker 2:

That's the key takeaway from this podcast. Thank God, kids don't write. Most kids don't write biographies. Thank God, your child don't write a biography right.

Speaker 1:

Or all good biographies be dead before they write it, because that's usually when you write a good biography. So as we record this on the day of the US election, I don't know when this will go live. I never know and it doesn't really matter. But like the recordings happening on the day of the US election, the last election I was like I'm a history buff but I'd like to really understand the power of the presidency a little bit more. So at the end of the last election I said I'm going to go read a biography on every president and I read a bunch of other books while I was doing that. But I finished about a year ago and there were a lot of things I learned about the US presidency. There were a lot of presidents I liked, a lot of presidents I didn't. A lot of presidents I thought, gosh, that's kind of boring. You know, some biographies are quite boring, especially if it's a boring president. Trust me, only so much scintillating happened in certain decades in the United States. And so a couple of things about that One great biographies they're better if the subject is dead, because you can almost sense the subject and their acolytes, kind of shaping the narrative when the subject is alive.

Speaker 1:

So back to our joke about kids writing that, and where it ties into things that I think are really important on a leadership standpoint is, I tell people all the time read stuff you disagree with. It's probably the first piece of advice I'd give an entrepreneur is read stuff you disagree with, because so often we get a view of what we think business should be, what we think marketing should be what we think sales should be what we think our culture should be what we think. I'm talking about business culture, but I guess you could say and go through every US president and their biography there's a lot you're going to disagree with and there's going to be a lot that you're going to be challenged by and um, and the sum of it to me is like read stuff you disagree with, read all the way to the end, and then you don't have to agree with it in the end. But just please don't just surround yourself with just information sources that you like. Um.

Speaker 1:

I honestly think we could solve a lot of problems if everybody just said I'm just going to go listen to the thing. That is the opposite of what I listened to for about a week and I think at a bare minimum there'd at least be a little more empathy and if, hopefully, there'd be a lot more knowledge that would go around. And I think, as an entrepreneur, it's really important because even if you just cap it into business, whatever you believe is true about business, you start a business that will inevitably change the longer you're in the chair and you really want to have inputs that kind of challenge you that way. Because, again, without those and without you actively seeking those because you're at the top of the food chain, it's really easy to sit there for a long time and have nobody challenge you, and I think that's really dangerous and it's an easy way to not be a business owner at some point.

Speaker 2:

Again, if the ego is the enemy here, in all these things like this idea of your business as yourself, there is ego, and actually we're just surrounding yourself with people that agree with you, with information that agrees with you, Not only are you going to be uninformed, that also might start swelling the ego as well. Actually, stepping away from that is what allows you to sort of build the business you want, maybe the life that you want, and these habits go across. There's quite a lot of work that goes into this build the business you want, maybe the life that you want, and these habits go across. Like it's kind of there's quite a lot of work that goes into this, whether that's through faith, whether that's through coaching, whether that's through whatever Developing as a person is going to show you benefits in your business and in your life, because ultimately, you're just one person.

Speaker 1:

Exactly and I will say, like, out of all the stuff I've shared, I mean owning a business has definitely developed me as a person and I don't I wouldn't have wanted a different journey. I mean it's great. I mean I'm biased, of course, but I think if you hold ultimate responsibility for something, it just changes people.

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