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Peer Effect
Best way to scale? Your peers have the answers.
This is the podcast for scaleup founders looking for insightful, actionable wisdom from some of the best operators around. Each week we’ll explore one secret that other founders and experts are using right now and how to implement it.
It’s practical wisdom to build the company AND life you want. Hosted by renowned founder coach and advisor James Johnson.
You’ve survived to £1m, now let’s scale to £10m+.
Peer Effect
Navigating Founder Alignment to Avoid Toxic Pitfalls, with Alice Olafare
What does it take to keep a team aligned, motivated, and moving towards a shared mission, even when things get tough?
In this episode, Alice Olafare shares her insights as an ex-founder and her experience working with more than 120 founders.
Together, we explore:
• The concept of aligning a common "North Star" vision to maintain cohesion, improve performance, and avoid misunderstandings.
• The power of having ongoing, open conversations, as well as external facilitation.
• The process of knowing when to step down when your vision no longer aligns with your business or your co-founder.
Connect with Alice Olafare on LinkedIn to stay updated on her insights and expertise in entrepreneurship and leadership.
More from James:
Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com
I wonder why some teams thrive while others fall apart, even with the best talent. How do you know if you and your co-founders are truly working towards the same mission? Today, we're tackling one of the biggest hidden challenges for founders alignment within your team and business. If it's your first time listening, welcome to Peer Effect, the podcast that fuels you with new ideas and inspiration through conversations with founders and experts who've made it happen. I'm your host, james Johnson, and I coach Series A Plus founders to regain control, drive their business forward and lead more fulfilling lives.
Speaker 1:Joining us today is Alice Olifari, an ex-founder and current head of platform at Kindred. She's worked with more than 120 founders, so if you're looking for insights into how you can establish a clear vision that keeps your team on the same page, then this episode is for you. So I think it's going to be great. I think you're going to have seen such a wider range of things and lots of founders. We tend to be sort of stuck in our own worlds, whereas you get this sort of helicopter view. What's the one insight that that you would share with founders?
Speaker 2:know who you're co-founding with or who your first employees are, and make sure you guys have any a shared, aligned goal make sure that you have a north star that you're all committed to, as that will make the decision process easier.
Speaker 2:and so I say this because, like there's, you'll often come to challenges where each stakeholder has differing views and you all have an equal stake in that decision being made technically, and that North Star is often the guide, the guiding line in terms of like which way you go, whether you go right or left, and it's sometimes when you reach these crossroads you realize that we have differing views of what we're trying to achieve.
Speaker 2:So yeah really know who your partner are in with and know what drives them and where they're trying to head, and make sure you're aligned.
Speaker 1:And by knowing where they're trying to head and make sure you're aligned. And by knowing where they're trying to head, we're not talking about like I want to make 10 million dollars, 10 million pounds, 10 million euros from this business. It goes a bit deeper than that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. So, when I say know what your goal is, as in what's the mission, the mission of the business, but also like your fulfillment. But also like your fulfillment, like I want to change society, I want to move the needle with technology, or I want to make sure that we have a presence in these ecosystems and we're thought of as these leaders. This is our brand, this is what our core values are. It's more so like make sure you're aligned there. The steps that is going to needed to be made to reach that they may differ and that, ultimately, you to needed needed to be made to to reach that they they may differ and that ultimately, you'll come down to like when you reach that question or that, that that bridge, what's the best tactic to take, but, um, as long as you're all pushing towards the same goal, that's what's key so how?
Speaker 1:how would you go about surfacing that? I mean, you've done it yourself in your own business and you've seen founders dirt, so it feels like you don't have that clarity. It's hard to make decisions you're all happy with.
Speaker 2:How do you get that clarity? I think it comes down to asking each other what does success look like for this business that we're trying to create, and what's the opposite of success? What does? Failure look like. Identifying what failure looks like as well is really key, because you might have different categories, you might have different levels, varying levels of what failure looks like, and you want to make sure that you're you're you. There's a baseline, one baseline of like we need to at least reach here.
Speaker 1:So I'd say that have a simple conversation right at the beginning so it's not just like, oh, we're going to set up a business that does x. It's kind of like we do a business that does x for the purpose of y and it's just like how it's going to operate as well. Does that come into it? So I mean values is a very overused word, but like, like the values of it sort of some of the operating principles yeah, definitely, I would say, like operating principles.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't get too in the weeds about like the technicalities of operations, um, because you can have a plan and then things will change in your market and it means that the way you operate needs to change, like your business model might need to change, your target audience might need to change, um, but that the the progress that you're trying to make, or the the value that you're trying to make or the value that you're trying to add, that should save the day. You need to stick something in the sand and be like this is the value that we're trying to drive.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, the operating principle. So you know, transparency. We want to build a business that is built upon transparency. We want to build a business that is built upon ethics. We always do the morally right thing. I think it's key to have those principles locked down. How we go about it, you know it might change.
Speaker 1:Is there a business that you can think of that you think has done this really well, which might bring it to life for people?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question. There's one business that keeps coming to mind, but I don't know why, and it's canva. And and the reason why I say canva is when I've read articles on like why canva was started. It was all with the aim of basically making design more accessible to people, and when I think about the number of people who use Canva, there's so many different use cases for it. Right, I use Canva. I know teachers who use Canva. I know non-profit founders who use Canva. The reason why they use Canva it varies, but I feel like their goal to make design more accessible has been achieved and that's been it from the beginning. And I think the founder I don't know if her background was even in design I've just felt like that's such a simple message and they've really achieved it. They don't do anything fancy, they're not trying to do too much, they're not trying to reach everyone.
Speaker 1:It's just they've got this core principle of like we just want to make design accessible, and they've done it. It's really inspiring it truly, is that? So what is what is your purpose? Yeah, exactly that. And so then, let's, let's say, let's say, you are the founder of Canva and you're doing this. How does that then? You've got your make design accessible. How is that making your decisions easier?
Speaker 2:like looking at your co-founder, looking at your team so I can imagine um, I've seen it with, like some some founders I work with. Let's say, you have a co-founder who's like the cto and they're driven by implementing the best tech stacks and making making your, your model, super high tech, your product really high tech and all these kind of things. But if the core principle is to make this accessible, it's not about us building a product which is super advanced. It's about building a product which there's a lower barrier to entry for our users. So in Canva's example, like, yeah, we can implement AI, we can implement, you know, these large language models and stuff like that AI, we can implement these large language models and stuff like that. But if it's going to be a barrier to making the design, the ability for someone to design on our platform, we're not going to go down that path. And just because everybody else is, just because the market's moving that way, that's not something we need to necessarily jump on.
Speaker 1:So say, hiring around that then. So you've got your CTO co-founder. It's all about accessibility. How does that sort of help you with your next batch of hiring? Or how might it flag hires that aren't right?
Speaker 2:I was having a conversation about this yesterday with a founder. In your hiring process, there shouldn't be like a culture fit stage. Culture should be sewn through every step of the process. So, through every conversation, through every task for applicants, it's identifying what drove you to this decision, what drove you to your previous workplace, what's driving you to suggest that we use this provider in this task. I've given you what's the goal here and teasing out oh, is it because you understand that our mission here is to make design accessible?
Speaker 2:It's all about getting more people onto the platform, or is it that you're choosing in this task? You're recommending we use a provider because, oh, this person will give us, you know, more partnerships to really high-tech users and stuff like that. Um, like sewing it through the process?
Speaker 2:I think is really key, um and I I also there's a saying um that I got from mary williams, who's an advisor here and she's the cto at clio. It's it's not about culture fit, it's about culture ad. So finding people who can like add to the culture of accessibility. So somebody who maybe doesn't have like a design background, somebody who is maybe not even from a tech business, but somebody who's their previous organization the goal of that organization was accessibility as well, so that person might have come from a nonprofit and they've tips and tricks in terms of improving accessibility to a certain area and just being able to pull out their learnings there.
Speaker 1:I think that would be something that's key, that you can implement into your hiring process and it sounds like, let's say, if you had a canva alternative, whose business was to make design as technological as possible, or, as I don't know, not quite as catchy as Techport.
Speaker 2:Yeah, techport like.
Speaker 1:I can see how that then suddenly plays into hiring, hiring profiles, culture, how your exercises might change like so if you take a step back, then say, okay, this is really important for founders. If you look through, so the portfolio that you support and your experience prior to that, can you see a correlation between clarity of that?
Speaker 2:yeah, definitely. Um, I think teams who are staying nimble and focused on alignment within culture, way of working, what our mission is, are often the happiest teams and the teams that have the most cohesion. There's less likely to be tension, let's say, between the tech team and the product team, because there's that alignment and everybody who's kind of being brought in knows that like, this is the goal. Um, it's not an ego play, it's not about your team shining or my team shining. You know you're not trying to get to b and I'm trying to get to a, we're all trying to get to c. Um, and so I see that there's often less miss hires, there's less hiring and then firing and there's less needing for like coaching, internal coaching or getting like external support. And you also see that with those teams and it will probably, you know, you're probably seeing the trend as well of everybody kind of going back to the office and stuff.
Speaker 2:Um, there's there's, there's flexibilities in ways of working because there's that level of trust. I know that, even though I don't see you day to day, I don't see what your team is doing and you don't see what I'm doing, I know we have this common goal, so I trust you to kind of be getting onto it and there's not a misalignment. And so we have a number of companies who are like remote first, um, and the reason why it works for them is because there's a key mission at hand and everybody's on board and everybody's focused on it, um, and they're not siloed. The teams aren't siloed, focused on different things it sounds.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's very simple. You just get your, get your north star aligned and it's easier. But it does certainly feel like we're saying that there are a lot of positive benefits from getting this right. Like you, can see better performance. You see better team cohesion, making fewer hiring mistakes like speed of performance, like alignment get what's going to do with this. All feels great. How hard is it to get that nailed down.
Speaker 2:I think it takes refinement in the sense that, like it's not a one-time conversation. Sometimes you have to go into these discussions with open-end questions and then take a step back to reflect and be honest. Sometimes it's really hard to be honest, because I ever really want to work with these people. You really think there's like potential in the space, but you have to be honest in terms of like. Are we working towards the same thing? Are these people I truly trust?
Speaker 2:And it takes time to build up trust you want to feel that you know, if my North Star is slightly different to somebody else's in the team, like my co-founders, they're not going to completely write me off. Is there space for compromise here? Um, for the north star to be, you know, a mesh of yours north star and my, my north star, um, so I think it takes some time, takes a refinement, and it's always good to go seek like external input in terms of like. Hey, this is what I'm thinking, what do you think? And being okay to like, let go. I think that's something in my journey I realize as well. There's there's a time where it comes right. Maybe you have started to build something with a co-founder and you're a year in and you realize we have different north stars and one of us needs to take a step back, and that person might be me so it feels like there's kind of the north star for the business kind of needs to work with your north star as an individual, in terms of you can't go.
Speaker 1:Oh, I really believe in canva, I really believe in accessibility for design but, actually intrinsically, although it's a great idea, you naturally might lead more towards tech forward and like a bit of elitism around it and the purity of design it needs to be kept like. But you see, the bigger opportunities in accessibility sounds like you feel that there wouldn't. That wouldn't work.
Speaker 2:As a founder, I think being a founder is as a 24 7 job. I think it is your whole identity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's like it becomes your whole identity. That's it's almost impossible just to dissociate from the businesses and also and your own personal law stuff for the business.
Speaker 1:I think you you have to do the right thing by the business and yourself and know when to tap out or know when to tell your teammate to tap out, which is very difficult, I think I really like this because it definitely if I think people I've coached or co-founded a couple of coaches have co-founded partnerships broken up and it feels like the ones that have really worked is where there has been that clarity around what they're trying to achieve, what they're bringing to the party, what they personally want to do, what they enjoy doing, what their North Star is as well, and actually then we're having the conversation providing having it early and it's like not last minute, it's being very transparent. It's been very transparent. Transparently. It's less ego based, it's more just a matter of fact. It's kind of like we said we're going to do this, we now need to do this, you like doing this?
Speaker 2:that doesn't fit a line.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but this is all very well. It doesn't work. It becomes quite emotional and it's like you're saying you don't, you don't believe in me anymore. Like this becomes. It becomes quite emotional and it's like you're saying you don't, you don't believe in me anymore. Like this becomes very personal and it can become quite toxic quite quickly yeah, very quickly.
Speaker 2:I've seen a number of, like co-founder relationships deteriorate, um due to a lack of transparency and alignment from the beginning and, like you kind of touched on it as well, I think it's really important to not be reactive, but act fast on these things. When you get that niggle, it's really important to have those conversations from the beginning. And having those conversations doesn't mean reaching a decision straight away. It means, like planting the seed and have making space for us to explore this over a certain amount of time, but you take your co-founder on that journey with you so that it's not hit by surprise and there's that trust is still intact it does feel like self.
Speaker 1:Your self-knowledge in this is really important as a founder. Like to know yourself well enough to know that you're matching your business, that your north star matches. To know yourself well enough that you'll be open to conversation. You may be the one having a conversation with them saying you need to leave. They may be having it with you. Like to be in a calm place to have those discussions and not make it personal. You need to have good emotional skills as well. Like there's quite a lot of deep work, deep personal work in here.
Speaker 2:I genuinely think every founder should have a coach at some stage in their journey. I think it's imperative that you are able to get someone who can help you. See, you know the forest for the trees.
Speaker 2:Someone who can kind of take you out of the details and be like hang on, what's you know what's going on with you versus what's going on with the business. How can you take the emotion out of it and, strategically, you know, look at this, um and how to act. I think it's really important because, like I said, it's just being a founder your business becomes so intrinsic to your character you can often be so emotional about it, and there's nothing wrong with being emotional, by the way, there's nothing wrong with being an emotional person. I just think it's useful to have that sounding board that can give you clarity through that emotion because it's what's true, weirdly true for me.
Speaker 1:There was like my own journey when I was a founder, in terms of just that sense of if you're disconnected from your north star, if your business north star starts, starts veering away from your own personal one, it starts creating this sense of not instability. It's like there's got a slight vibration, almost, and at the beginning it's like something very subtle. You don't think. Over time it builds and builds and builds until it's really hard, like even if you haven't surfaced it with a coach. There's this underlying belief that you're not, what you're doing is not taking you where you personally want to go.
Speaker 1:But because it's your business you're like, you're so committed to it and you're almost fighting it. You're fighting to get back together, but actually it's naturally taking further and further apart yeah, I don't know, does that kind of like also dissonance between what you're, what you're doing? Anyway, I can describe 100.
Speaker 2:I feel like I experienced I've experienced that as well um and it's it's difficult because the longer you leave it, the more dissociated you become, and the worse your performance is and the more detrimental impact you're having on the relationships as well, because your co-founder can definitely sense it and if you're not, if you're, if you're not careful, you can also build like a resentment. It's like in a, I guess in a divorce, like the, the collateral of the kids and in a co-founder relationship you have different north stars.
Speaker 2:The collateral is a business and the longer you leave it, the more damage you, you, you or the kids, and in a co-founder relationship you have different North Stars. The collateral is the business and the longer you leave it, the more damage you make to the business. Right, and ultimately, none of you want the business to suffer. You actually want the business to succeed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a really nice way of putting it. I suppose there's so much more to this than you think. Oh, just sort out your North Star, it's fine. It's like have a strategy session. Sit down for an hour, you'll make it, but it feels like you need to really uncover, like what your own personal values north star is. You need to like really decide what the business attach that then you'd find a co-founder and team that really believe in the same things.
Speaker 1:Be conscious that that may change over time, potentially you need to check in again, be willing to have the conversation keep yourself in a good frame of mind so that you're in a position to have these conversations, because obviously you get submerged in business. You're not even thinking about this. You might be too stressed to even acknowledge them there's actually there's a very clear benefit of getting it right, but it feels like it's a much bigger piece of work than it sounds like when you first mention it yeah, no, definitely, I think, because I think most businesses have like a mission and vision session.
Speaker 2:You know, when they're building out their deck, you know we need a mission page, you need a vision page. But it's like how, how long did you actually spend on that? How did you really like, did you really dig deep in terms of you know, if, what does success look like?
Speaker 2:What does failure look like? In the long run, if the market changes, if our product changes, because the product is going to change so many times, it's not really about the product. It's more so about the impact or the change that you're trying to make, the problem you're trying to solve. And I think that's what it is.
Speaker 2:It's the problem that you're trying to solve. It's not the product. What's the problem you're trying to solve? Because that's what you're going to have to keep on coming back to when you make a decision. And, like with the Canva example, the problem that we're trying to solve is that we want to make design accessible.
Speaker 1:If there's one thing that stood out from today's conversation, it's that building trust within your team and creating alignment isn't just about the product you're building. It's about the purpose that drives you and your team every day. Thanks for tuning in to Peer Effect I'm James Johnson and a special thanks to our guest, alice Olifari, for joining us today. As always, remember to rate and add the show to your favorites and I'll see you every Wednesday with a new episode episode exploring the lessons, tips and tricks that your peers have already discovered.
