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Peer Effect
Best way to scale? Your peers have the answers.
This is the podcast for scaleup founders looking for insightful, actionable wisdom from some of the best operators around. Each week we’ll explore one secret that other founders and experts are using right now and how to implement it.
It’s practical wisdom to build the company AND life you want. Hosted by renowned founder coach and advisor James Johnson.
You’ve survived to £1m, now let’s scale to £10m+.
Peer Effect
Leading with Purpose: Key Insights from Founders on Building Culture
A founder can make or break company culture!
In this curated episode of Peer Effect, we explore essential leadership strategies with Dean Seddon (founder and CEO of MAVERRIK), Dan Brownsher (Founder & CEO of Channel Key), and Nigel Thomas (founder of David to Goliath).
Their insights provide valuable guidance on fostering effective leadership and building trust within growing teams.
In this episode, we delve into:
- The crucial role of a founder’s presence in shaping and maintaining company culture.
- The importance of vulnerability and authenticity in leadership.
- Reward-centered VS responsibility-centered leadership, and the lasting impact of leading with integrity and dedication.
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Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com
I've noticed when I'm more removed from the team there is a sense of something's changed. I'm sure they also are glad when I'm removed from the team at times Because you know I bring that kind of like let's do this, let's do this, let's push, push, push. And they need a break from that. But an extended absence of a founder and they need a break from that. But an extended absence of a founder and founders is responsible for a lot of stuff in terms of culture and I did check out for a little while, for about three or four months, and we noticed a massive change in the business's culture and it took us months to kind of fix some of the problems that that created of just the drift from what you set up and bringing it back.
Speaker 2:I went to a really interesting talk once and talked about how founders or leaders spend ages like preparing speeches and writing emails and actually that's worth about 2% of what it is. It's kind of people just watch our behavior. It's like what are we doing? And that speaks to like 95%. So better spend that time just being present in the business and being with your people and sort of modeling the behaviors that you want, rather than writing fancy speeches and that that's been really hard for me because, as we've grown, there's some people who've been with me till since more or less day one.
Speaker 1:So I have such a depth of relationship with them, such like a way of communicating with them that's quite, quite direct and they're quite direct with me. But then we've got some people who've been here you know a year, two years. You know new starters. You know a year, two years, um, you know new starters and it's it's weird understanding the differences in those relationships.
Speaker 2:It's weird how, as a founder, you would go from the state where you you know all your team, your early stage team, and they know what you can do, they know what you bring to the party, they join the business because of you, and then it gets to a stage at some point when you're kind of the guy in the corner that people don't really know what you do or how good you are, or they kind of figure you kind of just came into being running the company and you kind of don't really know what you're talking about yeah, yeah, and and because of the nature of our business, we have some people who come in quite, you know, young, and it's their first job and so they will come in and he's the boss, but they don't really know what he does, um.
Speaker 1:and then there's other people who know I'm running at a million miles an hour with them and they get all the things I do, so it it is a strange thing and adapting to that in terms of um, I had a team quite early because we grew quite quickly. Those people knew where I, where my weak spots were. They know how I get a short fuse if I'm stressed and stuff like that, so they kind of get me in that way. But obviously a whole new wave of people. They're much further removed from me and they probably don't see all of the challenges behind the scenes. It's so strange how, how a business evolves and you know you're learning people's names and stuff like that, and how do you keep the same kind of ethos or vibe, whilst obviously the organization is basically growing and every person you add makes a little change?
Speaker 3:Leaders have this idea in a lot of cases that they have to know everything right and they have to always be definitive. That they have to know everything right and they have to always be definitive and they have to show strength and show that they know the answer and they are convicted and confident, and all of those things are important. Right, you have to display that behavior as a leader, certainly at times, and maybe in most cases, but there are times when you've got to take the armor down and take the shield down and really disarm yourself, because, it's true, it's being authentic to yourself. We do this exercise called the stick figure exercise. We've done this at the leadership team level and even the staff level, where, in essence, everybody introduces themselves who are you, where are you from, where have you been?
Speaker 3:What disappoints you about you? Right? What are your three biggest accomplishments in your life and your three biggest regrets in your life? And, ultimately, what we're doing? What's happening is, is we're allowing people to tell us who they are and where they've come from and what sort of baggage or insecurities they have Could be. Hey, I never graduated college, or I never got my high school degree right and that's a chip on my shoulder that I have and that's why I show up in certain ways or get defensive in certain ways, because I'm insecure about that right. So I think doing exercises like that and seeing the results that we get from our team and really pushing that, uh, throughout the organization, it shows and how does that sort of show up practically like this idea of like you're, you're, you understand, you're better.
Speaker 2:You're showing up differently, but how does that practically translate into? Like better performance, closer teams, better culture?
Speaker 3:I think it creates space for people to have more effective conversations and it creates a level of trust. Okay, because if I know you and I know your baggage or what your insecurities are, it's much easier for me to talk to you as opposed to me making up stories about who you are and why you might be behaving the way that you are. It's like hold up. I know you're triggered, right, and you told me you were going to be triggered and you told me this is what happens when you get triggered and you told me why you get triggered. Now I can work with that.
Speaker 3:I get that, as opposed to me saying why is this guy talking to me like that? What happened? What is it me, right? Does this guy resent me? What is it me, me, me? No, it's not me, it's not me at all, it's. It's it's them and where they're at and what their head, what the headspace that they're in, and they're triggered and that's okay. Everybody gets triggered, everybody has their moments, everybody has their issues and their insecurities and so if I know you and I know that about you, it changes the dynamic of the conversation because I can trust you Right, and vice versa, I can receive this information and not use it against you, right or?
Speaker 2:vice versa.
Speaker 3:So does that make?
Speaker 2:sense. Do you update this exercise as well in terms of could I imagine people work on this stuff. They change over a period of time. Is this sort of a? Do you update this periodically? This story.
Speaker 3:Sometimes I mean so we'll, we'll do the exercise. Sometimes we add new people to the team or we add somebody new to the leadership team. We'll do the exercise because we want to get everybody kind of reacclimated in and we want to have other others that haven't done the exercise before um do it because we want to they to be, we want them to be introduced. Now, some people have done this multiple times per year for seven years in a row and sometimes the story is the same and sometimes it changes, which is fine, right. People think differently over time, or they recall something differently, or they think about themselves differently, and so it's a kind of finite story. Right, it's a very fluid and dynamic story that can change over time.
Speaker 2:Do you encourage people to back of that sort of explore things with coaches or to identify behaviors to work on alongside, or is it really just about it's about understanding more than development?
Speaker 3:I would always encourage our team to seek coaching or get coaching or provide coaching if we can. The idea is around and why we do it is the exercise and the result of the exercise and it aligns with our values, or one of our key values honest and effective communication. What does that mean? How do you get to that? Well, you get to that by building trust with each other and creating space for trust and conversation, and that's rooted in vulnerability, and so we use that in line with our values, and then we've got a conversation model that we've used also. That ties into that. So it's really the focal point is behavior and culture and alignment with one of our key values.
Speaker 2:Because you were saying you're now like a remote first business. Yeah, building that sort of culture of trust remotely, is it harder, doing it remotely and makes these sort of exercise even more important?
Speaker 3:You know I'm a proponent of remote work for certain business types Certainly my business type, absolutely. I think it's a competitive advantage to be remote. But you're right, we have to create space for people to connect with each other and communicate with each other, because they're not walking around the office and passing by this person and checking in with them or seeing them in the lunchroom or having a water cooler conversation. We have to create space for our teams to interact with each other. So, yeah, I think that's part of the equation. Now, if I was in an office, I would still do the exact same thing. So to me, it's not about having a remote work environment or an in-office work environment. That is irrelevant to me. Now we just need to be more intentional with how we create the space for those connections in a remote environment, because, again, you don't get it passively or you get it less so passively. But again, if we were in an office, I would still do the exact same thing.
Speaker 3:It's not easy and I think it probably makes some people uncomfortable. But if somebody a leader in the organization goes first, right, if I go first and I model that behavior and I put it out on the table, then it's okay, right, if there are other leaders in the organization that do it first, their boss goes first, it makes it okay, and maybe they're not fully sharing and I understand that. And it takes time to build that level of trust. And you know, some people have challenging past or backgrounds or some very much, you know high insecurities, which that's life. Right, that's life. It can be messy at times.
Speaker 4:But if we model the behavior as leaders, then it makes it okay. It's about the motive behind leadership. So you've got two main types of leaders reward-centered leaders and responsibility-centered leaders. So reward-centered leaders are people that are doing it for their ego, for the fame, because they want to climb to the top and obviously they want everyone else holding them up. You can imagine you know someone there with everyone else holding them up and they're getting all the credit. These are the kind of fake leaders really that burn out. And then you've got responsibility centered leaders and again, if you go back to the image, they're holding everyone else up because they're sacrificing for their people, because leadership isn't about ruling with an iron fist, it's about the person who's willing to sacrifice most of their people.
Speaker 4:And really, if you're a leader and you're listening to this or you're an organization where there is a leader, you should be asking yourself this question Do you have the right motive behind leadership? Because leadership is not sexy. Leadership is about managing other human beings and you have to be there for them every single day. It's constant, it's absolutely relentless and if you're not in it for the right reasons, you will burn out.
Speaker 4:And I think the other thing is is if you're not a leader and you understand that early, and then you accept that and it's your own company. But then you have a great leader within your company who is responsibility centered, and then you give them and empower them to go and lead your team because they're in it for the right reasons. So I think the motive by patrick lencioni is a fantastic book, but, moreover, it's a chance and opportunity for everyone who's working in the team to ask themselves are you a reward-centered leader or responsibility-centered leader? What is your motive? And also to ask the leaders in your team. Then together, I think this creates a much better organization.
Speaker 2:Is the view that you can change your style or is it something that's intrinsic? You are. You are one or the other it's a good question, I think.
Speaker 4:I think you just have to be honest. It's do you want to change? I think knowing what you actually have to do to be a leader. I think that's the first part, because most people don't understand that there's no, there's no one telling people at school this stuff, so where else are they going to learn it? Most people are already running big organizations before they find this stuff out and then they're burning out, but really it's because of the motive behind it. So you first need to understand what it takes to be a true leader and then ask yourself the question if you really actually do want to change. I think it's possible, but you've got to understand every single day.
Speaker 4:If you're a leader depending on, obviously, how big the company is all you're going to be doing is managing people. That's your job. You're not doing anything else. You're just managing people all the time, and people have problems and you've got to be at the top in terms of it's a lonely place and no one's going to be caring for you. You've got to take all that burden of responsibility. So you've got to ask yourself that question do you want to change, do you want to become that person? Because it's not easy and if you don't just be honest with yourself, off.
