Peer Effect

Facing Founder Setbacks and Building Resilience, with Alex van Klaveren

• James Johnson • Season 3 • Episode 10

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There's no question that founders and high achievers often face significant struggles when it comes to failure and disappointments, and recent economic turbulence has only intensified these challenges.

This week on Peer Effect, we're joined by Alex van Klaveren, founder of Kandidate, a talent acquisition company that he scaled to over 100 people. With over 25 years of expertise in launching and scaling startup businesses, Alex brings a wealth of knowledge about recruitment and building resilience.

Together, we dive into:

• The art of managing disappointment and building resilient teams through strategic hiring practices
• The transition from a fundraising mindset to a focus on profitability
• Creating balance and staying grounded as a founder

For more insights from  Alex van Klaveren,  follow him on LinkedIn or learn more about Kandidate's mission to make talent acquisition your competitive advantage. 

More from James:

Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com


Speaker 1:

Dealing with disappointments as a founder can be incredibly tough. The emotional rollercoaster of entrepreneurship often leaves you feeling defeated, with setbacks and failures hitting harder than you could have imagined. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Alex McLaverin. He's the founder of Candidate, a talent acquisition company that's scaled to over 100 people With over 25 years of experience in launching and scaling startup businesses. Alex brings a wealth of knowledge about recruitment and resilience. You're listening to Peer Effect, the podcast that fuels you with new ideas and inspiration through interviews with founders and experts who have made it happen. If it's your first time listening, my name is James Johnson and I coach Series A plus founders to take back control so that they can take their business further and live a great life. Let's dive in.

Speaker 2:

I've been involved with startups for 25 years now, which sounds crazy to say that out loud. In my experience, many founders I come across have had pretty amazing careers, whether it's from quite a young age sporting achievements, academic achievements and then they suddenly find that they get themselves into a place or a stage where things don't work out in the same way and this is, I think, often can be quite unfair or it can feel unfair. So, learning to manage disappointment disappointment and this can be, this can be day-to-day disappointments. This could be something in a quarter, this could be something in a year, and I think for a lot of founders, 2023 was a year of disappointment. Um, they didn't get that Series B funding round. For some, their businesses went under.

Speaker 2:

There's record levels of companies going into administration and I think for a lot of people, that disappointment can be very, very hard to manage and very unfair. When the company was growing really fast, you were getting the press, investors were all buying, know, buying your drinks and saying you're amazing and the rest of it, and for I think, for a lot of people, it's the first major disappointment in their life. And when a company goes under or or doesn't work out or you're forced to sell to a competitor. All of these scenarios, whatever it is, that's, I think, psychologically very hard to take and I would use whatever means you can whether it's friends, coaches, psychotherapists, anything to try and really work through that moment. So yeah, I think the whole concept of managing disappointments is worth exploring.

Speaker 1:

There's almost two elements to this. One is that founders, by definition, they tend to be high achievers and therefore they're unused to dealing with disappointment. In the first place, so they're not very experienced at it. And secondly, when you do experience it, it can often feel outside of control or very unfair. It's almost like a double hit absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

And I think the high achiever thing is, you know they, they're often successful because they keep going and they're relentless and they've got higher resilience and I think for anyone who's been an entrepreneur for a while, is that resilience is often the difference. You know you take some hits, but I think the last two or three years we've discussed this many times off the back of you know, two or three economic shops COVID, huge.

Speaker 2:

VC increase and then the VC pullback, let's call it, of 2022 and 2023, all the macro stuff that is going along that does affect startups. You know that's a pretty chaotic last two or three years where stealing a line from a speech that you made or a talk that you made, you know it feels like you're getting punched in the face every month.

Speaker 1:

So if there was, let was, let's say, one particular way that you would found the most effective to sort of either prepare or deal with disappointment, what do you think it is?

Speaker 2:

so, trying not to take it personally and use this is going to sound a bit woo woo but examine what you could have done differently, because no doubt there are elements that you could have done better. Was my pitch good enough? Was my proposal good enough? Was the strategy good enough? Going into this, you know, of course there are elements that you should own, but then, once you've done that is to say, well, there are also elements that I couldn't control, um, and just try and learn from it, and then try, if possible, to try and move on and don't dwell on it, because you can, you know, talk to everyone around you co-founders, partners, whatever and and be bitching and say, well, this is unfair and all the rest of it. You just got to try and find a way to move on. And then don't think about it and or sorry, do think about it, but don't overthink about it and don't become obsessed by it there's a, there's a number of steps in this process, right?

Speaker 1:

so how do you give yourself more resilience? How do you give yourself that space to reflect? How do you then step forward once you've reflected, so that you're not thinking about it?

Speaker 2:

Some of the most resilient founders that I come across are pretty damn tough and can be tough to work with and work for, and I think there's a balance there. Of course you've got to listen and do all the good things and be there for your team all the good things and be there for your team but at the same time, if you get too tough and you're just firing everyone and not listening to the rest of it, that's going to affect the culture and it'll become not a very nice place to work. You have to create a sort of inner resilience but at the same time outwardly think about your team and what they're trying to achieve and be there for them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, for that sort of a trade-off. Like you can be too team focused and you may not achieve what you want and you pull all the pressure and stress onto yourself.

Speaker 2:

Or you can be a bit oblivious as a leader and force all that pressure and stress onto your team, which might save you, but it's going to have severe consequences for the team yeah, and I don't think there's been any year that I've come across, certainly in my experience, where last year most leaders were forced into that really difficult scenario trying to keep performance, trying to often retain the team, trying to stay profitable or try to keep going in about the toughest conditions possible for fundraising, selling. Everything was against every single startup.

Speaker 1:

I think you and I spend a lot of time in that sort of fundraising space and people that fundraise and a lot of founders up to that stage had their primary skill was fundraising rather than company operations. And suddenly, like you build your plans around OK, do series a, we'll do series b, we'll do series c. And then suddenly okay, well, no, you can't do series b for another one year at least, probably two years. And actually now it's not about growth, it's about profit. Your whole world has changed, like what's expected of you changed, what's rewarded changed, and that that feels tough and it changed in two weeks in it was the first two weeks in May of 2022.

Speaker 2:

That that was when it all changed. That was three or four months after the start of the Ukraine war and within that month we lost about 35 of our clients within four weeks. But the dramatic shift is in a lot of the board meetings that were happening. Suddenly messages were going to founders saying you know, you've got to extend your runway, we might not back you. So the rug was pulled under from most founders feet in a very short space of term.

Speaker 2:

Since then I think everyone has had to shift. Anyone who plays any part whether you're a team member, investor in the services around that has really had to adapt very quickly. And I think what has felt different to COVID is that it's been prolonged. You know COVID, actually within six to nine months, most of us, we sort of got our heads around the economics of actually how to operate a business. Then the last 18 months, I think we're all guessing and hoping and trying to read signs, but it's not dramatically improved for a lot of people. I think we're starting to see improvement now, but this has been at least 18 months of real pain.

Speaker 1:

And also around COVID. You had government support. Actually, businesses realised they could squeeze a lot of profit out of their businesses because they were forced to do good housekeeping, they could run with fewer staff, they could cut other costs, and so actually they came out of that period quite lean and quite well honed. The trouble is you can only really pull that trick once and so if, like a year later, you've got to go back into that again, those wins are not there. The team are more tired. The founders would have been through one shock. There's a degree of fatigue. Everyone is less well-equipped to cut again.

Speaker 2:

So this is slightly self-serving, this insight, but I think it really is something I've noticed. Very few founders, very few senior managers, are trained actually how to interview. Most of us have learned about interviewing by the experience that we've had are trained actually how to interview. Most of us have learnt about interviewing by the experience that we've had, so we tend to copy. If someone has a certain style or a certain set of questions, we tend to basically pattern match it and that's how we learn how to interview.

Speaker 2:

More recently, I've been watching a lot of videos of my team doing it and other founders, and I think you know. So technology really helps here because we can record interviews, we can actually extract and we can turn them into scripts, and so we've spent a bit of time looking at that, and I think what I'm realizing is that you know, most founders are still hiring with their gut, which I have done probably over 100 times, and I'm not saying don't use your gut, because your gut instincts are valuable. That's probably how you've made certain decisions, but you've got to back that up with structure and so ask the same questions each time. So that means scripting it, and this is the part where most founders roll their eyes is scorecards, because I think most founders believe that I will know that person when I hear them, when I see them.

Speaker 2:

So I think once once you start to listen and you start to hear this person, then your eyes light up and often I think that's where a lot of the critical thinking starts to go out the window. You just actually want to encourage them and cheerlead them and that's where the script comes in the recording I think is really interesting, because if you do sort of fall in love with a candidate, I really urge you to sleep on it and then re-watch the video again and just start to second guess yourself or share it with a co-founder or senior manager and say do you think I asked the right questions? What else should I be asking? Um, and yeah, so I would just say we all need to relearn actually how to interview and we need to assess.

Speaker 2:

The other part which is curious to me is that no one does references anymore. We all know the three people that you get given by the candidate. You know that's their mates. You have to be very careful about the questions that you ask and even if you get a bad reference, it doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't hire them. It just means you should look deeper, means you should look deeper. So I think I've just described three things there scripting, scorecards and proper references Mishires that are incredibly common in most startups. I don't think there's a founder out there who's not had a mishire, and the consequences are significant. But if you interview properly, I think you reduce that possibility and some companies seem to always seem to get it right more than they get it wrong, and there are some companies who get it wrong more than they get it right, and I think that that difference is really significant.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean it's almost impossible to grow a successful business if you get it wrong more than you get it right. Because it was an estimate like it costs you sort of. I can't remember the cost of it, but it's company-threatening hiring, Like you hire the wrong head of sales, the wrong CTO, the wrong. You then bring them in.

Speaker 2:

They're enrolled for six to nine months, Like you've basically lost a year, year and a half and that that if you're going through a funding cycle, even if you're not, if you're pre-revenue or early stage, I mean that can kill your business. It really can. I mean especially at series a, because I think you know you you basically have 18 months to try and get to series b.

Speaker 2:

Maybe things have changed a little bit. Maybe it's two years now because I think founders are not spending as much money or trying to grow quite as quickly. But even in two years, you know, that allows you probably small little windows to make changes. I see a lot of people saying it. But then when it comes in to the actual moment of the hiring, I'm surprised by some of the hires they make because they're just trying to get on there. You know they're trying to operate so quickly, they're under so much pressure, there are so many jobs to be done that we just get caught up in the moment, which is understandable. I've done it myself. But the more experience you get with this, the deeper you go into the assessment and you're prepared to ask really awkward questions to really good candidates, which feels counterintuitive, because you want them in your business. You desperately. They're great, they're amazing. Look at what they did at x company. I need that in my company you're right.

Speaker 1:

you're trying to find the reason why they, why they fit, rather than the reason why they don't. Yeah, and you're waiting to be sold to. And if there's such a danger of you're like a if it's a short process, b if you're waiting to be sold to and there's such a danger of you're like A if it's a short process, B if you're the only person in that process. An unstructured interview is just so unhelpful because you start asking different questions Once you get that initial like I knew in the first few minutes I had the right person. Suddenly, you ask soft questions, you start letting them out of answers. You're validating your own choice from that point on and it's super dangerous.

Speaker 2:

It becomes seduction. After that. You're trying to do everything you can to try and bring them into your business. Walking, I think, is incredibly effective because a lot of candidates are more relaxed and they tend to open up, because you're not facing each other with a table between you or it's not a zoom call, and I do think that's a really, really effective way. I have no scientific evidence from this, this is purely just me. I've had better conversations with senior candidates and I think sometimes posing really difficult questions in that scenario can be really good, because you're just having a walk, you know you're just walking along. You could get to a place where, of real honesty about what the job entails, all the challenges you're having, the rest of it, I think that's a much better interview, especially for early stage founders.

Speaker 1:

Is there anything that allows you to ask harder questions? Be consistent in your questions, but ask harder questions. Look for the reasons why they might not be right rather than the reason they are right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I've seen a lot of founders use the sort of anti-sale you know. This is why you shouldn't join the company and, in a sense, try and put them off a little bit and then see what their reaction is. I wouldn't advise that, but I've seen it done really well. Just to caution, the candidates say this is not a walk in the park, it's not perfect. The other thing I'd caution of is bringing in board members into the process. So the board members are not operators. Yes, they get their quarterly updates. If they have hired for that role and they're an ex-operator, that can be very, very useful. But I would encourage them to stick to the process and look at all of your answers, all your questions answers, so they are really well informed and they don't just ask a version of what you've just asked. The investor is looking for different things than you are. There are certain investors that can be useful, I would say, if they're ex-operators. But take their assessment with a pinch of salt and be prepared to still hire them even if they say no.

Speaker 2:

So I think that's where I've seen really good candidates who've not got jobs, who I felt were very good fit for the role, just because an investor said no, it can really complicate matters. So think carefully before introducing them and plan it with them. Plan at what stage and why they're interviewing that candidate. Maybe every founder knows this, but I came across it about six months ago. Scaling People is a book by Claire Hughes-Johnson. She was the COO at Stripe, I think founders, as you know, word is spreading and I think that's a pretty seminal book now for scale-ups and, I think, how to manage the operations and the people and reporting and everything. I think that's like the lean startup was you know the Bible when you started out, I think, for scale-ups, I think there's a lot of really really good stuff in that book.

Speaker 2:

The other thing I would say this is just a personal thing that I've tried recently. So everyone knows about meditation and I struggled with struggled with it. I'd spend that 10 minutes planning what is about to do, um, so I try and do the meditation. Actually, it just ended up being a a sort of mental to-do list of as soon as I stop this 10 minutes, I'm going to go and do this. So breathwork a lot of free apps out there but that actually had more of an impact in terms of slowing me down and actually forcing me to think about other things. It's fairly quick it takes 10 or 15 minutes. It's just a recent thing I've tried, but for me it seems to be working at the moment and obviously it's good to calm you down and it's good for focus and things like that. So I don't know, I've been trying that recently and it seems to be working.

Speaker 1:

And just for people that. So what exactly is breath work?

Speaker 2:

Good question. So it's a set of practices breathing practices where we breathe 20,000 times each day and many of us breathe in the wrong way, whether mechanically or through our mouths, and so there's a set of practices you do to force more air in and out. In so doing, that calms you down because it's because you're breathing in a different way. If if you do the proper stuff actually can be a significant sort of hyperventilating, and that does it does different things to your body. I'm not suggesting you should go that far I think it's interesting to try but just a set of practices on varying the breathing that you're doing. I'm using the Nike app. There are many other apps out there, but it's free and it's a six-week course or something. It doesn't cost anything and it's about 10 or 15 minutes every day. So that seems to be working for me.

Speaker 2:

I've always stuck by the mantra it's never as good as it seems. It's never as good as it seems. It's never as bad as it seems. You know, most of the things we all worry about it turned out to be pretty pointless, or actually things work themselves out. So, you know, I think most founders spend a significant amount of time worrying, and rightly so They've got responsibilities. You know all the various things we have to worry about. So they've got responsibilities. You know all the various things we have to worry about. But just stick to that. It's not not as bad as it it seems, it's not as good as it seems, and just try and stay healthy and enjoy the ride, because you, you just never know how it's going to work out thanks for tuning in to peer effect this episode.

Speaker 1:

We explored practical strategies for dealing with disappointments, hiring effectively and building the necessary resilience to maintain personal and professional well-being as a founder. As always, join me every Wednesday for an episode packed with inspiring advice and actionable tips from founders who are making it happen.

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James Johnson

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