Peer Effect
Best way to scale? Your peers have the answers.
This is the podcast for scaleup founders looking for insightful, actionable wisdom from some of the best operators around. Each week we’ll explore one secret that other founders and experts are using right now and how to implement it.
It’s practical wisdom to build the company AND life you want. Hosted by renowned founder coach and advisor James Johnson.
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Peer Effect
When Bets Don’t Pay Off with Tim Redgate of EchoMany
Tim is the Founder of EchoMany. In its first year, they secured 45 blue-chip clients in the first year.
But Tim had dark times ahead
In February 2018, the Cambridge Analytica scandal happened.
Facebook clamped down on all data access which led to lost clients and campaign struggles.
He was all in but with no way to deliver his product.
He’d shut a successful tech development agency to focus on this big potential product which had gained insane traction.
What could he do now?
In today’s episode, we also talk about:
- Difficult decisions to make when things are going wrong
- Making the best of a negative situation
- The importance of an exit strategy
Tune in and listen to Tim Redgate’s inspirational story. He provides a firsthand account of navigating a start-up through a major crisis and making difficult decisions. This episode offers valuable insights and lessons that entrepreneurs and business leaders can apply to their journey.
More from James:
Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com
Even if we do that and we give ourselves another six months worth of runway, do we think there's still a business there in six months? There's an additional layer of emotional connection to the business. So when it was starting to go wrong but we'd always had a healthy, healthy level of separation, I think that allowed it to not be a total disaster. We said this was a risk we said it was a bet and some bets don't pay off, and that's what's happened, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:So I'm delighted to welcome Tim to the show today. He's the founder of Echo Many, which won 45 polluted clients in their first year, which put impressive growth. How are you doing?
Speaker 1:Tim Good. Thank you, james. It's good to be on here. As you say, that was the good side of the story. That was the upward curve.
Speaker 3:But on this podcast we always dropped back to the less good time. When are we going back to?
Speaker 1:There were a few points when we first started talking about this. There were a few points we could have gone back to, because obviously every business goes through that, but the big key one for us was February 2018 and the fallout from the Cambridge Analytica controversy was just starting to impact us as developers. On the Facebook app.
Speaker 3:So, for those who don't know, cambridge Analytica was the Facebook scandal in 2018? Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, that was it. It was all the misuse of personal data and the sort of spreading of fake news and all the spreading of opinions, especially around the US election, that were just pointed towards, these bad actors, really, that were using that data. And obviously there were lots of businesses that were using Facebook data in a legitimate and considered way, one of which was us, certainly not using data for anything like what was going on there. But the upshot was that everybody kind of went into lockdown and that Facebook itself went into lockdown, couldn't actually launch apps onto Facebook for several months. It was quite a.
Speaker 1:I've never actually looked into how many businesses faltered around that time, but I'm sure we weren't the only ones, because there was a lot of business that was on Facebook, because that's where all the media spend was going, so it was the natural place to go and try and ride that wave.
Speaker 3:So why was that such an issue for EchoMany?
Speaker 1:So EchoMany was a platform that we had developed. So I guess, going right back, I'd founded a business in 2003 with my brother Creative Digital Agency, my brother and another co-founder who was an old friend so basically a bunch of very close friends effectively coming together to build an agency and then fast forward 13 years or so of that business, we created EchoMany, which was this platform that would take social data out of, initially, Twitter, but then we obviously went where the money was in Facebook and Facebook Messenger and we could then do deliver a personalized video off the back of that data that we were getting from those platforms, so highly reliant on all of those platforms. So both in terms of the data we're allowed to access, the way in which we're allowed to send those videos to individuals, so it's very personalized, one to one personalization. So, yeah, we're always at the behest of those platforms.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, when that sort of lockdown came and on the, I should stop using the word lockdown because it means something totally different for everybody else but when the system effectively stopped us from you weren't allowed to publish apps onto Facebook, for that time that controversy and the backlash was going on and we were totally reliant on that we couldn't launch our platform for a brand onto their brand page on Facebook effectively without being able to deploy an app onto there. So that was the sort of technical. So we were just physically not able to deliver on campaigns, some of which we'd already started. They just stopped, some of which we were about to launch and already received the first 50% payment for, because that was our payment terms. So we're in a sort of sticky position.
Speaker 3:Right and up to that point as a reference intro, things have been flowing like you won 45 new blue chip clients in your first year must have been like a rocket ship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was, and I think we'd built this agency. It was a boutique agency. We had some great clients over the years. I think our first major client when we first launched in 2003 was Universal Pictures. So we launched with a bang, and over the years we had Marriott Hotels. We're a client of the agency, 20th Century Fox. We worked with a couple of big charities like Breast Cancer Campaign, waterstones Books. We did a massive re-platforming for them.
Speaker 1:So that was our sort of traditional bread and butter agency work as a sort of tech design and build agency really, and it was 15 to 20 people. That was as big as we ever got as a team and we just knew that in terms of if we ever wanted to exit, that multiples would not be that interesting for a 15 to 20 person boutique agency. We always felt that a tech product was probably the way that we wanted to go and we were increasingly involved in developing tech products either for our clients and doing a lot of custom engineering really for those clients. So we had the skills in-house to do this and we'd had a few false starts with other products that we tried to build and try to launch that were not the market, wasn't there or just wasn't as interesting. And then suddenly, with Echo Mani, we built, we effectively did like a tech feasibility study. We knew what we wanted to do. We knew we wanted to personalise video and at the time we were working still with a lot of film studios. So the initial idea was how do we reward people who are talking about a movie in a positive light on Twitter by sending them a personalised version of the trailer? That was the simple, the first use case, if you like.
Speaker 1:And so we'd done this tech feasibility. We'd worked out that we could do it. We didn't know quite how we would be able to scale it. It was one of those things where we I think we gave one of our senior engineers like a four week window to try and build something said look, this is what we want to do. You go away and piece together the tech and let's see if we can do this. And they got it working by pulling together a few different bits of tech and a little bit of custom engineering and we'd got this prototype working. So, rather than then carry on building and investing because obviously we were bootstrapping ourselves we said, okay, well, we'll just put together some nice marketing materials and some sales decks and we'll go and take it out to a few clients and just see what the reaction is. And we've done this with a few other sort of things that we tried to get off the ground over the door. I think that's sort of lukewarm.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's nice, but it's not really a you know, not really a necessity and we took, we took this prototype out and the reaction was just like nothing we'd ever seen. You know that you can see certain businesses that suddenly they touch upon that thing that everybody wants at that moment and it's pushing an open door. So we took it into Fox. So they were already a client of ours. So we took it to the marketing director at 20th Century Fox and he was like, yeah, love this, want to be first, want a degree of exclusivity if you'd be first. So we said, okay, yeah, we did a deal in the end where we did a multi-film deal. They were the first studio, so the first film company, so we won't do any other film companies for a period of time. So you've got that level of exclusivity, but we've got we need to go and try and sell it into other sectors. And then so we started to reach out into other sectors, some of which we already knew, some of which we had clients in, some of which were totally cold to us, and we got similar, really similar, responses, even from cold outreach. So we were getting meetings everywhere. We wanted to get meetings Again.
Speaker 1:Being a 15 to 20 person agency was really hard to even get in the door of most of the brands that we ended up working with. But we got in with. I mean, coca-cola was very early, we got in with them. We were in with Honda. We were in with Santander, the bank we worked with. We ended up working with. I think at one point we were working with 10 or 12 of the top 20 charities. Charities really jumped on it because it was a great way for them to engage with their supporters. So British Heart Foundation, I think, were first, but we ended up working with the companies research, common relief, there was a whole bunch of charities, so we had these proof points.
Speaker 1:basically, then, in all of these different markets and all these different sectors that then gave us the sort of, gave us the confidence that this was the right thing, that we should throw all of our weight behind, it's not seen in the background. All the money we're making from these campaigns, effectively that we're doing for these brands we're plowing back into the platform, making it more robust, taking it from beyond Twitter into Facebook, from Facebook into Facebook Messenger, trying to integrate it with CRM platforms and things like that as well.
Speaker 1:So yeah, heavy, heavy amount of engineering over that first year as well. So we'll kind of it's a classic jump off the cliff and build the plane on the way down, sort of an allergy.
Speaker 3:But with a very clear objective, which is build something to sell, reinvest all the profit scale as fast as you can and just with the knowledge that this is. You've been doing this for a while. It's in your sector. You've never seen this level of response and it's just, it's just flying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, there was that sense that maybe it's a fashion, it was, it was of the moment. But then, at the same time, I think, okay, we're getting all these early adopters, but early adopters are more likely to move on to the next shiny thing. So there's a there was a bit element of that in the background where we're thinking, okay, this might not have the longest shelf life. So there was a certain degree of us thinking, okay, we can build it to a certain level and then we should look to try and integrate it with somebody much bigger. So trade sale effectively. And that was our strategy.
Speaker 1:You know, obviously we looked at all the different options. Do we go for investments, try and scale it, do we? I was just the two really was either that or a trade sale, rather than us continuing to bootstrap it because, again, we felt that we'd potentially at some point run out of steam. We didn't do that just from the point of view of being able to scale, because we were, you know, we needed the cash coming in to keep the business going, but we needed to keep delivering campaigns in order to do that.
Speaker 1:Therefore, the you know it did it was a trade off all the time in terms of what we invested, and how much we invested in developing the platform versus how much we went out and sold another campaign.
Speaker 3:So so to hit this moment, then you've you're growing fast, you've been re-invested with money, and then this black swan event happens, which have no control over, which is Facebook just shuts down.
Speaker 1:Yeah and it's you know there's loads of lessons in there.
Speaker 1:But you know, obviously putting all your eggs in one particular basket is, you know, the classic one we were doing about. Like I say, we were already working on different platforms. So Twitter we were working on, but, you know, nobody was really spending money on Twitter, the advertisers weren't spending. So the fact that we could amplify because that was what we often spoke about that you know, if you're, if you're running a campaign on any of those platforms and then people engage with your campaign and we can then send them a bit of personalized content back that they then share, it was all about amplifying, hence the name Echo.
Speaker 1:It was like echoing you know, echoing the message out to many people, but if it weren't particularly spending lots of money on Twitter anyway, then they're going well less interested in that platform because we don't really spend on there, whereas we're spending everything on Facebook. And so, yeah, we were, we were highly reliant on it. We were doing well over 80% of our revenue through Facebook and Facebook Messenger. Most of our client the other. The other kind of challenge was that most of our engagements were it was campaigns. Campaign so naturally lent itself to big campaigns because it was bursting, you know, effectively a burst of activity around a moment. We had a few always-on clients British Heart Foundation was one. Clark Shoes, the High Street shoe retailer, was another. There was a few, I think. Of the 45 clients, I think maybe five or six were always on. But yeah, obviously wasn't enough.
Speaker 1:It wasn't enough to keep us going and actually you know, when we, when we sort of agreed we were going to do this, this podcast, I obviously went back and looked. You know what was the sequence because you know things get blurred. This was obviously going back in a few years now and obviously there were things that happened before that that were just a natural part of being a startup and so we'd not, we'd not got the biggest war chest to write it ourselves.
Speaker 1:We'd built, we'd effectively made the decision to build the platform and and take that risk when we did it the first time, because we'd built up a reasonable war chest through our agency. We'd always been quite cautious with with you know how much money we kept in the bank effectively. You know we always had the thing of three of our clients leave tomorrow. You know we need to have six months money in the bank, sort of thing. And we'd we'd had a particularly good year and we, you know we probably, with a bit of nip and tuck, probably could have rolled out a year at the beginning of that journey.
Speaker 1:But, by the time we'd gone sort of 15 months, we'd invested heavily in a sales team which we'd never had before. Again, being a 15 person business, sales was always just me, really, my brother. We focused more on the operational side of the business. So, yeah, we'd invested quite heavily so we'd been dwindling that war chest down and so yeah this point, with that, with that event, where it was it had come at a point where we didn't have.
Speaker 1:We didn't have much of a buffer to ride out the storm. And also, I think, even if we did because obviously the ways of getting that you know we could have remortgaged the houses and all that sort of thing, and and and and doubled down and we had a couple of sort of investors that were lined up that would take that journey with us if we wanted to take that journey. But there was also just that we thought it had a shelf life anyway and then we just had this event happen to us which was out of our control. We didn't know how the market was going to respond to personalization post Cambridge Analytica.
Speaker 1:So there's quite a lot going on that we're thinking it's not just about us going, it's fine, it's just life of a startup and we'll get over it, which we've always done in the agency Whenever we're into a tough patch, like we can get through this. It's just about going out and, you know, doubling down on our sales effort and, you know, working with our clients to find those extra bits and maybe trimming you know trimming the team back and things like that, which obviously we did in this period. But there was some other sort of outside factors we were going. Even if we do that and we give ourselves another six months worth of runway, do we think there's still a business there in six months?
Speaker 3:So you've kind of shifted from this, this kind of conservative, lots of money in the bank, something that you always had faith in, into something which was, which was more of us like all in back to a degree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly that, exactly that, and I can remember you know when it all, when this had all sort of come to a head and it was, you know.
Speaker 1:We limped on for a few months, basically, but this, that was the point that it was already you know we're already sort of running a really tight ship, really tight sort of cash flow, and you know we obviously had to make some difficult decisions. I think my brother and I hadn't taken any money out of the business for a few months at that point. So you know, there's all these things all coming together and I can remember, yeah, I came home and my wife you know she was, she was always fully supportive, but never fully, you know, never really got involved in what I was doing.
Speaker 1:I didn't talk about business at home. I've always had that big separation of you know, even though I'd often go back on my computer late at night and all that sort of thing that you know it did encroach on our lives. It was not, you know, I did have separation from an emotional perspective and I came home sort of told her what had gone on and she, just the first thing, and I was one of those things where obviously I was expecting her to go. Oh my god, you know we're gonna lose the house and this. You know I have that sort of reaction. And she just said, you said this was a risk when you did it, you know, and we'd obviously had the conversation so the two years before when we'd start on this journey, with Ekko Mead and we had made the choice, and we'd reached a tipping point and made a conscious choice to close the agency and focus on Ekko Mead.
Speaker 1:And yeah, she just said you said this was a risk. You said it was a bet and some bets don't pay off, and that's what's happened and it's kind of brought it all back. I was going yeah, that's ultimately what most business is doing is. There's a lot of timing and luck involved in in the success you know, sometimes it's a bloody minded determination as well and you know you have that element. But there's there's some luck in timing, serendipity in there as well.
Speaker 3:I think most most successful exiting founders, I think, would recognize that as well it sounds like, then, in the response to this, even if your family wasn't deeply involved in the process of the knowledge it's not like they were actually quite an important part of sort of why you did it, making the decision, and even as of the decision to continue or not continue, they were important component in it yeah, and it's you know we obviously I was in the business with my brother, so you know it's.
Speaker 1:You know it was deeply personal, deep, deeply family focused. But we always had that separation to the point where, you know, I can remember I always used to come back and then my wife would sort of say, oh you know, remember to ask Simon. And so remember to ask Simon about was getting together for Sunday lunch next week, or remember to ask him what, and then I get back and she'll be like you know, we meet him for Sunday. I'll totally forgotten to ask him. She's like what you talk about, you know you're with him all day long, I'm. So you talk about business and it's very separate. You know we would arrive at the office and we would be, it would be all about business and obviously at the weekend it was all about family and so, yeah, we always kind of have that separation.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it was, it made it, yeah probably made it harder because you know there's there's an additional layer of emotional connection to the business. So when, when it was starting to go wrong, but we'd always had a healthy, healthy level of separation, I think that allowed it to not be, you know, a total, total disaster hmm, so to be emotionally personally yeah and in terms of the outcome of this.
Speaker 3:So there must be a reason why you decided to go for the bet rather than the sort of the steady contingency, do you? Do you feel that that has come through, if not financially?
Speaker 1:so, yeah, I know I think you know we, when we made the decision and this actually when we're thinking about you know the point at which you go back to as well. This is one of the other points we could have gone back to was we were obviously running the agency alongside building Accomany. Initially, all of our new business effort was really focused on Accomany because it was just such an easy sell. It was literally, you know, we'd go and sell a campaign and I think that the record was a pizza express, I think, was the record where it wasn't even it wasn't me that when did the sale. It was one of our one of our sort of creative account account people. He had gone in for a meeting in the morning with pizza express and they'd signed a contract before he even got back to the office I mean our office without London, so taking him a couple of hours to get back. But that was that. It was a cold meeting and inside the contract for the first campaign by the time he got back to the office. So, from a new business perspective, it was just it was night and day to what we were used to. And then, yeah, there was this.
Speaker 1:There was a point where we'd got our existing clients and we had to think about how we off-boarded them, because we're going well, the team shape needs to change and we can't have our engineers being distracted by by work for for clients. So we, you know, we still had Marriott as an ongoing client. We still had and we're still doing stuff for Fox. We were still doing stuff for Sony PlayStation was was another one, and that was the big tipping point. So Sony PlayStation came to us with a project and it would have been one of the biggest projects we'd ever done, easily one of the two biggest projects we'd ever done in terms of actual build, design, build. It was going to be several worth of effort and it was a non-competitive situation. So we'd already built systems for them in the past. So they just said we want you to build this system for us with this European rollout that they were doing, based on the work that we've done for them before.
Speaker 2:And we said, no, that was the tipping point and we sort of looked at you know, we we sat down as a board.
Speaker 1:We'd got a chairman involved as well by that point. So we because it had been my brother and I and our old friend that started the business we brought a chairman in to give some different perspectives and he'd sort of taken some shares in the business and got involved. So we sat down as a board and that was the decision. Do we? If we do this, we've got to, we've got to double down on their commanding, we've got to give it everything. We've got to off-board these clients as quickly as possible. So then, over the next few months, we off-boarded all of our existing clients and and help them move to other suppliers, basically.
Speaker 3:So, marriott, we helped them through a process of moving a bunch of websites that we maintained for them and things like that, over to other clients, over to other suppliers, and I'm just curious though, let's say I mean I'm sure many founders given the same set of data again, which was you had a product which was selling like, like that, like sort of like swift closers with blue chip coal clients, I wonder what you would do again with the same data.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, yeah, hindsight is a wonderful thing. I think we were so concerned that by not giving it 100%, we'd never quite achieved what we wanted to achieve. Obviously, with hindsight, it was an amazing door opener. If we'd been able to continue it alongside the agency, then who's to say that we wouldn't start selling our agency services into all those 45 clients, or many of those 45 clients that we were working with, or develop new products that would run alongside it? We just the runway disappeared.
Speaker 1:Obviously, we'd started to look at what was the next phase of ECOMENY already in terms of, beyond the personalization, we're looking at more general ways of effectively data-driven video creative. So whatever data feed we could get in, we could use that to inform the video that got rendered, basically on the fly. That was the technological side of it was more about okay, we just needed a data source. The social media was just a really easily get-outable data source, but obviously there are others that we were looking at. But so, yeah, that could have been with more runway, we may well have got to that. But yeah, with hindsight I think, maintaining alongside your core business or even spinning it out Interestingly, I work a lot in that now with businesses that are spinning out, helping agencies and consultancies to spin out products from their business. I've got several clients that I'm doing that with now and they do maintain the two.
Speaker 3:I think there's a sense of urgency, though, and desire to go all in. What do you think was driving that?
Speaker 1:I think a little bit of it was personal journeys as well. We've been in, by that point I think, 13, 14 years of this business Grown organically. It was a nice business, but it was not massive and so we were really thinking about the next phases of our careers.
Speaker 3:I'm saying I don't want to do this forever.
Speaker 1:I would like to think about potentially now. I'm working this fractional way now and that was part of what I was thinking would be a nice onward journey for me in my career anyway, but so I think that's what drove the decision.
Speaker 1:It certainly will drive the decision not to go for VC because that was like, okay, that's a very different journey and I think my brother and I loved each other and we're going to be. Really Would it still feel like the business that we founded if we'd taken on VC, got that influence on the board? So I think part of it was like okay, there's a very personal aspect to what feels right for us and so effectively hurtling towards trade, sale, which is effectively what we're trying to do, felt like the option that was personally most attractive, even knowing that it might not have made us as much as we could have made if we'd gone down a VC journey and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:But it was a reality check of what do we really want from our lives, our careers, and I think going on a VC-driven journey was just not one that ever appealed to us.
Speaker 3:It sounds also like even with society, we could have grown the agency and we could have used that as a door opener. It sounds like you were ready to move away from the agency because you've been doing it for the long run. So I'm curious whether that would even have been success like maybe financial if it can go oh, that would be the better financial outcome by wondering whether that truly would have been success.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it would have just been another chapter and obviously you know being the type of you know being a tech focus or digital agency. We've been through a few transformations. You know, when we first started out, it was all about building, you know, very creative flash websites and stuff like that For people like the film industry and clients like that. And then it morphed and we started to create more mobile. When mobile became the big focus, then we became more of a mobile agency and then we became more of a tech implementation agency once people started to want to piece together different bits of technology.
Speaker 1:So we'd already morphed the business a few times Our creative director and co-founder. We bought him out of the business a few years earlier because we'd stopped being so creatively driven and we were more technology focused, so we'd had a few morphs during that time anyway.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it might have just been that it would have been the next iteration of the agency, by keeping both money in parallel but with the same challenges of running a small business and actually looking back or looking forward.
Speaker 1:From that point, I think if we still had the agency and I take my hat off to the agencies that kind of maintained it through COVID.
Speaker 1:But then Marriott was one of our biggest clients, and so we think about the hotel industry and how that was challenged during the COVID. So it's like, once you look back and go, we should have done this, but then who's to say that COVID would have been the factor that would have hit us? And then it's been interesting watching the whole writer's strike that's been happening, because I remember the first writer's strike because that impacted our film industry clients back in 2007, I think it was around there, and so, yeah, that was again another point in our journey where there was an outside factor that damaged our revenues, but we'd never had one where it sort of shut down completely. And I think that diversity of both in terms of diversity of clients, diversity of sectors that we'd always maintained as an agency and tried to do with in Echo many is something that I very much hold on to. Now and again I work with some tech services businesses now and it's like actually being diverse can be really beneficial, especially through those difficult times because for every thing that's going down.
Speaker 1:you might have somebody that's going the other way, Whereas if you're totally focused on a single industry. You never know how that might outside factor might suddenly just turn off the lights.
Speaker 3:Having to review this journey again today and in prep, what's been the main thing that's stood out for? You.
Speaker 1:It's hard to say. Really, it's because I sort of came to terms with it. Obviously I've spoken to a couple of people saying that I'm going to come have this conversation and they're like, oh my god, it's going to be like a sort of therapy session. But I've spoken about it so many times, I've told this story. I've never told it in a public way in terms of it's going to be published and it's going to be so. I never did a post on LinkedIn to say here's what's happened. I've had lots of private conversations and anybody who I meet.
Speaker 1:I'm always candid about the journey. There's no dressing it up.
Speaker 1:I think the biggest thing, and actually the important thing of going back and looking at it not just that event, but the events that led up to it there was other things that happened, whether it be campaigns that went wrong where a couple of campaigns go really publicly wrong because obviously you're on social media, people can find ways to trick the system and so we had a couple of things go quite publicly wrong in terms of the types of materials that were being published through our platform. So, yeah, that's the only time we've ever been on the front page of the Sun website, but yeah, that's the whole other podcast. But there are lots and lots of things that happen and actually I think the biggest thing I take away from it is that I don't look back on it with any regret. I don't look back on it with any sense of what could have been, even though I effectively previously, I'm taking the journey that I thought I was going to take post EchoMany, just obviously without the benefit of a trade cell, which would have been nice.
Speaker 1:But I just look back on all of those things and go it's all great learning experiences. I'm comfortable with where I'm at. I'm happy with what we achieved. We had a great business for a long time, did some great things, enjoyed working with my brother for 15 years and I wouldn't change any of it. So, yeah, that's. My main takeaway is that, although it's a bit of a cautionary tale, I suppose in the context of this podcast, there's a few lessons in there, but now I work with multiple clients now from a mix of advising and actually getting sort of more intrinsically involved sometimes in really shaping commercial strategy and working as part of the board. Effectively, but with a little bit of removal, you've just got that one degree of separation from everything, which makes everything less clouded, and so that's something that I'm really enjoying, and it's only because of those experiences and what happened really that I feel that I can kind of do that now wholeheartedly.
Speaker 1:I think that's the you know, without a sort of nagging doubt of should I have stuck at it a bit longer and should I have done that Because it was almost that decision was taken away.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you very much for sharing. For the first time, I feel pretty sort of been on my podcast, but it's been really interesting.
Speaker 1:No, no, it's been interesting, it's been good to talk it through and, like I say, it was good to have the discipline to have to go back and actually look at what happened in a bit more detail, Because I sort of knew the story but obviously knew the story because I lived it. But to actually go back and look at it again just reinforced, I think, a lot of those feelings that I have about it now.
Speaker 3:Amazing. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thanks, James.
Speaker 3:As you heard today, coaching opens up a whole range of insights and areas to explore. If you have a potential moment to revisit on the podcast or just want to learn more about coaching, book in for a 30 minute chat with me at peer-effectcom.
