Ken Babcock, co-founder and CEO of Tango, shares his transformative journey of redefining workplace training and learning. With a bold decision to leave Harvard Business School amid the pandemic, Ken and his team harnessed their insights into workplace inefficiencies to create Tango, a revolutionary platform that digitises the traditional job-shadowing experience, enabling asynchronous, on-demand learning.
In this episode, we delve into:
For more on how Ken Babcock is steering Tango to innovate within the tech and training landscape, follow him on LinkedIn.
More from James:
Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com
Ken Babcock, co-founder and CEO of Tango, shares his transformative journey of redefining workplace training and learning. With a bold decision to leave Harvard Business School amid the pandemic, Ken and his team harnessed their insights into workplace inefficiencies to create Tango, a revolutionary platform that digitises the traditional job-shadowing experience, enabling asynchronous, on-demand learning.
In this episode, we delve into:
For more on how Ken Babcock is steering Tango to innovate within the tech and training landscape, follow him on LinkedIn.
More from James:
Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com
Navigating training and job shadowing can be incredibly challenging, especially in remote settings where much of the personal interaction, hands-on experience is lost. Today, I'm excited to be joined by Ken Babcock, co-founder of Tango. Ken and his team started Tango while studying at Harvard Business School with the mission to digitize job shadowing for companies worldwide. If it's your first time listening, my name is James Johnson and I coach Series A plus founders to take back control so they can take their business further and live a great life. You're listening to Peer Effect, the podcast that fuels you with new ideas and inspiration through interviews with founders and experts who have made it happen.
Speaker 2:So four years ago, myself and my co-founders, brian and Dan, we started working on this idea while we were at Harvard Business School. The initial insight was that shadowing the physical act of shadowing somebody in your job is something that happens across industries, across companies, sizes of teams. I think we could all probably point to an experience where that happened. But it's inefficient, usually relies on who's just proximate to you. You know who you're sitting next to. How do you know if that's actually the subject matter expert? So it's pretty simple and straightforward. But what we said was can we take that experience and actually like digitize it? So the initial idea for Tango was really what we called Twitch for Work, so basically bringing those insights, the understanding of tools and processes into a digital format that then the person who's ramping up could consume it asynchronously on their own time at their own speed.
Speaker 2:And you know it was around this time also that the pandemic hit. So people went remote, went distributed. The pain of not having a smooth, seamless way to shadow people sort of came out, and I think what it exposed for a lot of these companies was that they just didn't have the infrastructure to be able to support asynchronous learning and training and ramp up and new hires. It just was, it was messy and so we dropped out of Harvard Business School, started the company immediately went out, raised a seed round in the fall of 2020 and and we were? We were off to the races it's.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting how I would not want to be a junior entering the workforce right now. Like you lose with the move to like remote working and sort of hybrid. Like you lose so much of that sort of hidden mentorship and support that you used to get. I mean mean, not take out even the social element of like how important that is, but just the learning by watching and the learning by experiencing. I can totally see that pain point you're describing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's where that piece that you mentioned around, you know, people who are new to the workforce. That's why I totally get it when companies say, hey, you know what we are actually going to shift back to an office, particularly if they've got sort of this diamond-shaped workforce where there's a very few senior people and then it sort of cascades down and you have this large base of new hires. It totally makes sense to me because I think when these folks are entering the workforce and they don't really have anything to compare it to and they think, oh, this is work, this is remote, this is you know me in my apartment. I don't actually form real bonds or connections with my co-workers. Uh, you know this like sort of spontaneous osmosis of ideas and insights. That's not part of my day-to-day.
Speaker 1:They just don't know any better and then just to put your job back to the insight in terms of what was it about the insight that gave you the conviction to leave Harvard Business School? Because it's an impressive place to be. You're around other people, you've committed to it financially. You've got to be fairly sure in your insight to take that step.
Speaker 2:So I'll say yes in terms of a conviction. I think a lot of that was rooted in my own experience at Uber. The team that I was on at Uber was tasked with creating the playbook for how we launched markets, and that playbook was based on every market we had launched at that point, and so I understood the value of what sort of proper documentation, getting things out of people's heads and onto a slide or onto a Notion doc, like I saw the power of that at Uber, like that was our secret sauce. Uber was a decentralized growth story. People lose that a lot of times. You know, having Uber in a market like New York didn't benefit any other market than New York. We had to go launch every other market on its own and build up the brand and build up the rider base and driver base, and so I think that was what gave me conviction. You know, at the same time, like was was there a pull to stay at Harvard Business School?
Speaker 2:That one, like it honestly, was an easier decision, and I don't want to diminish the value of Harvard Business School and obviously a lot of people put that on a pedestal and it's a big goal for a lot of folks, but you know, school had also gone remotely and and the value of business school yeah, classes are great, but it's all the other stuff, it's all the people that you meet, the people that come on campus and that had just grinded to a halt with the pandemic, and so it was a little bit of like yeah, we're taking this leap, which seems crazy to a lot of people, family and friends included, but that experience had diminished so much that it kind of made it easier.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you've left Harvard. You've gone for Twitch, for work. You said it's kind of. It may not be exactly where you started out. Where has it got to today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean Tango today is the easiest, fastest way to train people on software, and so you know we're a Chrome extension as well as a desktop app, but effectively we're a solution that allows you to document in real time, as you're going through the process, everything you do in that software that you're an expert in, whether it's HubSpot, salesforce, workday, canva, I mean you name it.
Speaker 2:We've got people documenting how to use it with Tango, and so the automatic creation of documentation simply by going through what you do normally on a day-to-day and then sharing that in highly consumable formats to the rest of your team.
Speaker 2:That's where we're at today, and it's pretty powerful, because when you think about the buyer decisions around buying a Salesforce, buying a Zendesk, buying a NetSuite, you know there's like real ROI calculations going on in the back end where someone in finance is saying okay, if we're going to migrate, what do we expect the impact of this to have?
Speaker 2:This is a seven-figure deal, and a lot of that impact is rooted in assumptions around ramp time, efficiency, widespread adoption, and I think most teams overestimate their ability to really do that well. And so Tango comes in and says hey, you've got all these grand plans for this software. How are you going to make sure that people know what they're doing? So you know? It's not a video product like Twitch for Work sounds like it might be. It's not Big Brother-y. We're not actually looking over people's shoulder, but we're giving people the tools to say here's how I do this thing in this tool, and now I can disseminate that out to everybody often when people buy software, there's this idea that, oh, just buying the software is enough to change the behavior.
Speaker 1:It's like if we change the tool, we will change three years of embedded behavior and suddenly everyone's going to use the system and it's going to be super easy. And, having done that process a lot of times over the years in different countries and different businesses, it never works like that.
Speaker 2:So much about user behavior and how you reinforce it and it's, it's um, you know and I say this as a technologist, as an optimist people just don't like change and I think that that's something that like in our marketing meetings, in our sales conversations, you know, in a lot of our preparation for understanding our customer and meeting them where they are. That's one of the truths of changing software, adopting new software. For a lot of folks it's a headache, and so I think confronting that reality for us has been really helpful in designing our product roadmap, in designing predictability around the product roadmap, how we talk to customers, how we talk to the customers who are like those champions of software that are like expecting this big behavior change but haven't yet confronted that reality. So there's a lot of truths that we revisit about our customers.
Speaker 1:And do you think that original insight has held?
Speaker 2:Yes, but it's become more robust. So if the initial insight was that you know, shadowing happens everywhere and people typically learn from their peers, I think that's still true. I think the way that it has evolved is we've gotten narrower and more specific. You know how people learn. I mean, that's a really broad bucket. You're talking about generalizable knowledge. Tactical knowledge maybe isn't as much of a like. Here's how I follow the process. But tactical knowledge maybe isn't as much of a like. Here's how I follow the process. But you know, hey, here's this, here's this thing that I've learned from being here for three or four years. I think in getting narrower and really focusing on the things that are the most painful, we've been able to harness kind of like an urgency in our customers when we're talking specifically about learning how to use software versus just like general knowledge and mentorship, that's that's a lot more compelling. I think you know, if you stay in this sort of generalizable zone, it can be hard for customers to immediately identify like what they need you for.
Speaker 1:And so so for, like, founders listening to sort of, I feel like, this idea, idea of getting tech, like you buy a new system and it works, what is the thing that you would say to them?
Speaker 2:And this is learned the hard way. I think when we started we used to think that by solving documentation, the opportunity was limitless. Right, there was no ceiling on that. Like everybody kind of needs documentation, everybody has knowledge that they need to document. We would describe it as extremely horizontal, industry agnostic, function agnostic. All of these things that thought we were painting a picture of like this is gonna be the biggest business of all time. And we thought we were painting a picture of like this is going to be the biggest business of all time. And we thought we were painting a picture to our customers that was kind of like hey, any problem that you're coming to us to solve around documentation, we're going to solve that, you know.
Speaker 2:So it was a little bit of us like puffing out our chest, but we had read all of the marketing and sales advice that was like find your use case, find your ICP, get narrow, start narrow, then take on the market. And I don't think it became super real to us until we just we started seeing users adopt Tango, get started, and then just kind of fizzle out over time. And then we would talk to them and they were like yeah, you know, I just wanted to like test it out and try it out, but I didn't really have anything specific in mind for what to do. And then they would just forget about it. But then they'd see us on TikTok again in like three months. They'd be like, oh my God, yeah, tango. Like they were still really excited about the premise. They just couldn't match it with a use case.
Speaker 2:Why should I use this? And so my advice to founders is, as tempting as it is, to paint the biggest possible addressable market and say that this thing is going to be widely adopted by everybody under the sun. You do have to start narrow. You do have to get specific, because you're going to have maybe a lot of customers sign up or want to get a demo, but then it'll be hard for them to kind of connect the dots on. Where is this really going to fit? Where is this going to be mission critical and how am I going to be able to sell to leadership, to finance that? This is something we absolutely must have, particularly in a time where a lot of these costs are becoming more heavily scrutinized.
Speaker 1:What's like an external insight or influence that you would share, and why?
Speaker 2:insight or influence that you would share and why I think the external influences are always hard, because you're just so focused internally on the day-to-day and it's all consuming. The thing that I would share with founders, though, you know, I've had an executive coach now for two plus years. She's fantastic, and I think she's fantastic for a lot of reasons, you know, but I'm I'm one of three co-founders. We have a team of 38. I'm the CEO.
Speaker 2:There are just some things that are harder. It's harder to talk through, even with your team and even with your co founders, right, and so I think having that outlet that you know, let's call it external influence that helps me structure problems, think through messaging delivery, think through how to avoid my own biases and blind spots and say, okay, that's one perspective, let's, let's like, let's kind of play. The other side of it, uh, has been, has been so critical, not not just to my like effectiveness internally, but also my mental health, I would say. A lot of times when you're caught up and you're stuck in your head and you feel like you can't have a conversation with either your co-founders or your team, your mind sort of races and inevitably you start either imagining the worst or painting a narrative.
Speaker 1:That just isn't true, and so I think for every CEO co-founder, having an outlet like that externally is so valuable and you'll never regret spending whatever you spend on on having a coach a lot of co-founders or founders get the sense of, oh well, I shouldn't invest in myself, or I don't have the time, or there's a whole range of reasons why people might be hesitant to do it. What was it that sort of enabled you to take that first step?
Speaker 2:it's funny because, you know, the last time we did this podcast, you know, I talked a little bit about fundraising while my first son was born he's now two and a half it was probably right around that time. I had just finished up our Series A, I had my first kid and, just like, a lot was going on and a lot of things were putting demands on my time that I hadn't, that I hadn't had before. Um, and you know, founding is such an all-consuming thing that I needed to start setting up boundaries. I needed to be more efficient with my time. My co-founders now know that, like, if I think a meeting is running on or going on a tangent, I will call it and I will leave the meeting. You know, cause it's just, I just can't waste. I can't waste that time. And so, in a lot of ways, like finding getting a coach, even though it was an additional commitment, time-wise and investment was really about, like, how do I drive some of this clarity in my own thinking that benefits the constraints that I now have?
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I felt like a coach was going to help me drive that.
Speaker 1:There's a time cost and a financial cost, but there's also a time dividend and a financial dividend on top of the mental health dividend.
Speaker 2:Totally, totally, and I also think too, with remote work. There is a negativity bias that comes from being remote, not being in person, consuming a lot of messages via written text you can. You can quickly tread into territory where you're biasing towards the negative and you're not assuming positive intent, and so there's a little bit of that too, where it's like okay, how do I sort of shake that off and make sure that the way that I'm looking at things is kind of acknowledging all possible perspectives? I think one of the things that my coach does that's just so effective is I'll start talking possible perspectives. I think one of the things that my coach does that's just so effective is I'll start talking about something, I'll wrap up my thought and she'll sit there for like 15 seconds and inevitably what happens is like I start sharing a little more, or she'll say what else? Right, and so she knows that her role is largely like helping me shape and craft my thoughts.
Speaker 2:So I think listening is something I would look for. I think the other thing, too, is is look for someone who's who's not afraid to push back. I often I think this is true not just for coaches, but in a lot of situations, whether it's like you're finding a therapist. You're finding a physical therapist, you're finding, like a mentor. People tend to look for someone who's going to tell them what they want to hear, and the best thing that you can do is actually probably hear the things that, deep down, you know are true, but you've been afraid to kind of expose them.
Speaker 2:And so you know, with my coach, she'll commonly say, like, why do we think that's true, or why do we believe that's the way we should process this, and just little things like that where it forces me to kind of acknowledge those blind spots. I would say that's another one. And then you know, my coach has spent most of her career in the tech industry and has only recently kind of transitioned full-time to being a coach. There are a lot of like career coaches out there and I'm sure some of them are fantastic. But the fact that she's able to also draw from her own career and experience and helping me think through things, I value that a ton, that one I'd call optional, but think about whether that matters to you. So I don't know if this is necessarily a secret sauce and I'm going to get a little philosophical here.
Speaker 2:I think entrepreneurship is really about solving hard, meaty problems that haven't been solved before, and so if we agree that that is what entrepreneurship is about, these hard, meaty problems are just not going to have a lot of shortcuts. You're going to have to think deeply, you're going to have to spend the time. It's all stuff that's like pretty straightforward and most people can agree with, but I have to often remind myself okay, we're solving really hard problems that no one has solved before. We need to afford ourselves the time to be able to dig in and solve them. I think a lot of times, people are looking for the quick win. They're looking for the quick hack to start the know, have a crazy growth and all this. I mean you see it now, with all the AI companies that are popping up all over the place, is that really entrepreneurship or is that just? You know? Financial opportunity is the same thing with NFTs, maybe three or four years ago, and so that, unfortunately, is what gets celebrated a lot of times and all the channels that we're in and the social media that we're a part of, where it's like oh my
Speaker 2:gosh, this company went from like zero to a billion in 10 months, right, and it's like that's great not to diminish that. But really hard, meaty problems take a long time to solve, and so how does that translate to what I do? Um, I, I try to build in more time in my schedule to to think and to really like understand and write, and you know, not not just look for like okay, wait, what's the quick fix? Let's move on, let's, let's take the checklist and like burn through it as fast as we possibly can. You know not not just look for like okay, wait, what's the quick fix? Let's move on, let's, let's take the checklist and like burn through it as fast as we possibly can.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, cause, if you get into that sort of like what I call checkbox or output mentality, are you really solving the hard problems. So that's, that's like one philosophy. You know, no-transcript constantly. It just creates an ongoing tension and anxiety that you probably don't need. So I dedicate two half hour blocks a day, one at the beginning, one at the end to answer emails and anything that comes in outside of those times they can wait for the next half hour block. So founding is hard enough, don't make it harder on yourself. Give yourself the time to think.
Speaker 1:I think I don't even dig into how you create that space, but I think there's really been things like taking back control. If you allow other people to disturb your time, you'd let other people to drive the agenda. You can end up in this responsive mode of responding to urgency responding responsive mode of responding to urgency, responding to clients, responding to team, and I think the theme that's sitting behind here, which I really agree with, is the idea that good things take a long time. Therefore, how do you create time on your schedule and once you've got that time on your schedule, how do you protect it so that you can do deep work?
Speaker 2:I mean you have to just build it in your calendar. I think that's a big one, Like I've got time blocks that are always there and you have to sort of defend those, whether it's my email block, or maybe I'll put in there like a focus time. You know when I first turned off notifications for email and Slack, which sounds like a cardinal sin in founding a tech company.
Speaker 2:I had to build some infrastructure around that right. Like hey, if I'm offline on Slack and something's truly urgent, you know in my Slack profile I have my phone number and other ways to get in contact with me, so it's not like ignoring those responsibilities.
Speaker 2:It's about how do I sort of triage in a way that is going to preserve my attention and my focus and my energy and so if something is truly like urgent, force people to kind of confront that for themselves and answer that question for themselves and then make that decision whether they're going to text you or call you about something.
Speaker 1:Quite, liberating for the team as well. You've got the space to do this. I trust you. I've hired good people. I've built a good organization. You should be okay without me.
Speaker 2:That's a good internal litmus test too, for any founder CEO is to try to remove dependencies on you as much as you possibly can. And there's a fear there because people don't want to be rendered obsolete or they don't want to feel like, oh, like. The impact that I'm having is not it's not solely attributable to me, but you have to hire well, you have to trust people, you have to delegate. That creates a resilient organization you have to delegate.
Speaker 1:that creates a resilient organization. It feels like there's a real theme here of just sticking to what's important and then even with coaching, it's helping you create that space to think things through like go after the hard problems, create the space to really think about them, give yourself a mission to take time, both in the moment and over a period of time, and know that it's going to take a long time to build and support yourself with the right team and the right people around you to really allow this to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, when you say that it sort of reminds me of I'm sure some folks who are listening are Seinfeld fans but you know the way George Costanza goes about his work. I think there's an episode where he says everyone assumes you're busy if you're frustrated or if you've got this busy approach to everything that you do. I think, unfortunately as much as that's a comedy, I think that's like very prevalent in our work culture. Everybody wants to seem busy, everybody wants to like be staring at their phone, staring at their inbox. It makes it makes them feel important in some way, but a lot of times it's super, super, super counterproductive.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning into peer effect. In this episode, ken babcock shared how digitizing job shadowing can significantly improve remote training and onboarding. We also spoke about the importance of narrowing your focus, as well as the role of proper documentation and strategic software implementation. If you're looking to enhance your team's productivity and streamline your processes, definitely go check out Ken on LinkedIn and don't forget to join me next week Wednesday for another exciting episode of Peer Effect. See you then.