Dan Brownsher, Founder & CEO of Channel Key, discusses his unique perspective on leadership within the fast-evolving e-commerce landscape. Under his guidance, Channel Key has flourished, assisting brands in mastering the intricacies of selling on Amazon with a team that's grown to 85-strong.
In this episode, Dan shares invaluable insights into how embracing vulnerability and humility can fundamentally enhance organisational culture.
Together, we cover:
Listen to the full episode to uncover how Dan's approach to leadership can inspire your own journey in managing and growing a team effectively.
Discover more about Dan Brownsher’s work at Channel Key or follow him on LinkedIn for ongoing insights.
More from James:
Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com
Dan Brownsher, Founder & CEO of Channel Key, discusses his unique perspective on leadership within the fast-evolving e-commerce landscape. Under his guidance, Channel Key has flourished, assisting brands in mastering the intricacies of selling on Amazon with a team that's grown to 85-strong.
In this episode, Dan shares invaluable insights into how embracing vulnerability and humility can fundamentally enhance organisational culture.
Together, we cover:
Listen to the full episode to uncover how Dan's approach to leadership can inspire your own journey in managing and growing a team effectively.
Discover more about Dan Brownsher’s work at Channel Key or follow him on LinkedIn for ongoing insights.
More from James:
Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com
Welcome back to Peer Effect, the podcast that fuels you with new ideas and inspiration through interviews with founders and experts who've made it happen. I'm your host, James Johnson, and I coach Series A plus founders to take back control so that they can take their business further and live a great life. Today I'm thrilled to introduce Dan Brownshire, founder and CEO of Channel Key. Dan has successfully grown his company to a team of 85, providing comprehensive solutions for brands navigating the complexities of selling on Amazon With insights into leadership and organizational culture. Dan brings a wealth of experience from a unique perspective on how vulnerability and humility play a crucial role in business. So, without further delay, let's dive in play a crucial role in business.
Speaker 2:So, without further delay, let's dive in. I run an agency. I'm very much in the people business and, honestly, most people that are in business are in the people business, but what I found helpful since running this company for the last seven or eight years is, as a leader, displaying vulnerability and humility. In my opinion is the is the main ingredient to building a great culture, and it is based on integrity and building trust and allowing space for good communication. Uh, that's the foundation.
Speaker 2:So so I'm very much a fan of Brene Brown and what she talks about. I think this is in line with what she says and I've heard a quote that I really like is that vulnerability is the greatest show of love and strength in the human existence, and I agree with that, especially as a leader. If you can display that and show that humility to the rest of your team, I think it's very disarming and it shows who you are right. It shows who you are as a person and what your strengths are and perhaps weaknesses are, and what your baggage is and what gives you anxiety or what makes you uncomfortable or what makes you feel like an imposter. I think that it creates a level of trust and authenticity.
Speaker 1:That's important when we first start careers. We think it's kind of like when you just have all the answers and like we feel imposter syndrome, we try and hide it. What was it that sort of gave you this certainty that vulnerability was the way to go? Was there a moment?
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know if there is a single moment. I think it's a commitment to the idea and then overall practice, just practice doing it.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I've got a mentor that's that reminds me of this all the time, which is also really helpful. And you're right, leaders have this idea in a lot of cases that they have to know everything right, and they have to always be definitive, and they have to show strength and show that they know the answer and they are convicted and confident, and all of those things are important. Right, you have to display that behavior as a leader. Right, you have to display that behavior as a leader. Certainly, at times, and in maybe in most cases, but there are times when you gotta take the armor down and take the shield down and really disarm yourself. Uh, because, it's true, it's being authentic to yourself.
Speaker 2:We do this exercise, um, called the the stick figure exercise. Uh, we've done this at the leadership team level and even the staff level, where, in essence, everybody introduces themselves who are you, where are you from, where have you been? What disappoints you about you? Right, what are your three biggest accomplishments in your life and your three biggest regrets in your life? And your three biggest regrets in your life and, ultimately, what we're doing? What's happening is, is we're allowing people to tell us who they are and where they've come from, and what sort of baggage or insecurities they have. Uh, could be hey, I never graduated college or I never got my high school degree right and that's chip on my shoulder that I have and that's why I show up in certain ways or get defensive in certain ways, because I'm insecure about that right.
Speaker 1:So I think doing exercises like that and seeing the results that we get from our team and really pushing that throughout the organization, it shows and how does that sort of show up practice, like this idea of like you understand, you're better, you're showing up differently, but how does that practically translate into? Like better performance, closer teams, better culture?
Speaker 2:I think it creates space for people to have more effective conversations and it creates a level of trust. Okay, because if I know you and I know your baggage or what your insecurities are, it's much easier for me to talk to you as opposed to me making up stories about who you are and why you might be behaving the way that you are. It's like hold up. I know you're triggered, right, and you told me you were going to be triggered and you told me this is what happens when you get triggered and you told me why you get triggered. Now I can work with that.
Speaker 2:I get that, as opposed to me saying why is this guy talking to me like that? What happened? What is it me, right? Does this guy resent me? What is it me, me, me? No, it's not me, it's not me at all. It's them and where they're at and the headspace that they're in and they're triggered and that's okay. Everybody gets triggered. Everybody has their moments, everybody has their issues and their insecurities. And so if I know you and I know that about you, it changes the dynamic of the conversation because I can trust you right, and vice versa. I can receive this information and not use it against you Right or vice versa? So does that make?
Speaker 1:sense, Do you update this exercise as well in terms of could I imagine people, people work on this stuff, they, they, they change over a period of time. Is this sort of a? Do you update this periodically, this story?
Speaker 2:Sometimes. I mean so we'll do the exercise. Sometimes we add new people to the team or we add somebody new to the leadership team. We'll do the exercise because we want to get everybody kind of reacclimated in and we want to have others that haven't done the exercise before do it because we want them to be introduced. Now, some people have done this multiple times per year for seven years in a row, and sometimes the story is the same and sometimes it changes, which is fine, right. People think differently over time, or they recall something differently, or they think about themselves differently, and so it's a kind of finite story, right, it's a? It's a very fluid and dynamic story that can change over time.
Speaker 1:Do you, do you encourage people to back of that sort of explore things with coaches or to identify behaviors to work on alongside, or is it? Is it really just about? It's about understanding more than more than development?
Speaker 2:I'm always. I would always encourage our team to seek coaching or get coaching or provide coaching if we can. The idea is around, and why we do it is is the exercise and the result of the exercise. Uh and um. It aligns with our values, or one of our key values honest and effective communication. What does that mean? How do you get to that? Well, you get to that by building trust with each other and creating space for trust and conversation, and that's rooted in vulnerability, and so we use that in line with our values, and then we've got a conversation model that we've used also. That ties into that. So it's really the focal point is behavior and culture and alignment with one of our key values remote first business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, building that sort of culture of trust remotely, is it harder doing it remotely and makes these sort of exercises even more important?
Speaker 2:You know I'm a proponent of remote work for certain business types Certainly my business type, absolutely. I think it's a competitive advantage to be remote. But you're right, we have to create space for people to connect with each other and communicate with each other, because they're not walking around the office and passing by this person and checking in with them or seeing them in the lunchroom or having a water cooler conversation. We have to create space for our teams to interact with each other. So, yeah, I think that's part of the equation. Now, if I was in an office, I would still do the exact same thing. So to me, it's not about having a remote work environment or an in-office work environment. That is irrelevant to me. Now we just need to be more intentional with how we create the space for those connections in a remote environment, because, again, you don't get it passively or you get it less so passively. But again, if we were in an office, I would still do the exact same thing.
Speaker 2:It's not easy and I think it probably makes some people uncomfortable. But if somebody a leader in the organization goes first, right, if I go first and I model that behavior and I put it out on the table, then it's okay, right, if there are other leaders in the organization that do it first, their boss goes first, it makes it okay, and maybe they're not fully sharing and I understand that. And it takes time to build that level of trust. And you know, some people have challenging past or backgrounds or some very much, you know high insecurities, which that's life. Right, that's life. It can be messy at times.
Speaker 1:But if we model the behavior as leaders, then it makes it okay, which goes back to your insight. Like modeling vulnerability as a leader leads to so many benefits culturally 100%. What is an external insight that you would share and why is it interesting to you?
Speaker 2:Like I'm big on content and reading and hearing speakers and receiving information that way, and so external insights for me, I think, are getting information from outside experts or books, right, or podcasts. And so there's an individual I heard speak a couple of years ago that really impacted me and his name is Todd Musselman. He's a speaker, he's a coach, right. I heard him speak. I'm in an organization called Vistage and he came in and was a speaker and I hear a lot of speakers and I have for many years but this guy really impacted me and the concept he talked about. He talked about a lot of things, but the thing that really resonated with me was this idea of of being a victim or being an owner, like victim versus ownership, and there was a lot of things related to that discussion and that presentation that he said that I live. I still live with and, you know, write reminders on post-it notes every single day because I think it's so important.
Speaker 2:So for me, I think there are moments where everybody is struggling, you're feeling sorry for yourself, you're having a really bad day. This, the meeting didn't go the way you wanted it, and I think it's easy for people and it certainly is for me to get into this framework and mindset of being a victim, right To my circumstance, like this happened to me. Why is this happening to me? But in reality, I chose all of it. Chose all of it. I chose it. I chose to start a company, I chose to hire these people or to live out these values, or to sign that client or to call that meeting or have that conversation or do that podcast. I chose all of it. Okay, I'm not a victim to anything, right, I have a choice. And if I'm not happy with that choice, I can also choose something different. And so that idea was so liberating to me, so liberating, and I think the flip of it is considering gratitude. It's not, oh, this is all happening to me. It's no, I get to do all these things because I chose to do all these things. How cool is that? And if I don't like it, I can choose something different. And it changes the way you look at your life.
Speaker 2:So, like how you react to certain situations. Is the starting point of being a victim right? How I react, starting point of being a victim, right, how I react. And if I pause and choose to react not as a victim but as an owner. Boom. It changes what I'm going to say. It changes how I'm going to ultimately react to the situation and in a lot of cases, fear holds us in this victim mindset. Fear is what's holding us back and this idea of I'm not good enough or I'm an imposter If that is what you're saying to yourself well, that creates and that holds you in that victim mindset. If you're like man this person spoke to me this way or this meeting didn't go the way I wanted, oh man, maybe I'm not good enough.
Speaker 1:All right, maybe I don't deserve this Right.
Speaker 2:That's the victim talk in your brain which is really hard for people because it's true, and how you feel and how you think and all that is absolutely true and you have to honor that.
Speaker 2:But you can also change your habits and you can change your thoughts and change your mindset and change the outcome and results that you get. So, like fear just sucks up your spirit, it kills your possibilities, kills your energy, kills your confidence, kills your performance, like being in that state kills your, your spirit, right, and like key things that you, that are triggers that I've written down, like if, if I ever say I have to do that, or I'm supposed to do that, or I should be doing that, or hey, how you doing, well, I'm hanging in there Like no, no, I'm being a victim If I, if I think like that or say those things, which to some people sounds really harsh, but to me it sounds liberating because again, I have a choice, choice I make the choice, I'm in control, versus an owner says I get to do these things, I want to do these things, I choose to do these things. Right, that's way different. That's way different what one is.
Speaker 1:you're very much responding. This is it's basically a transactional analysis where you look at parent, adult, child and adult is your mindful state and you're choosing how you respond to it and parent and child are like you're just responding to it. You get caught in this loop. It's not fair. It's happening to me. It's quite a childlike response and shifting into adult and going adult to adult how you communicate, because also you can start pushing that to other people, like if it's not fair for you, you can then start trying to rescue other people. You're going to start persecuting other people for not living up to their what they should be doing as well.
Speaker 2:it's like it plays out in three different you take take three different positions in that triangle yeah and yeah, parent shop, maybe, maybe, or, and how our brains are wired right, your fight or flight brain, the amygdala right, or your reptilian brain, you know immediately it goes into around fear, right, I'm trying to protect myself, whereas if I pause and say, hold on, what's really going on before I respond, then I can have a more thoughtful response If I can train my brain to say, nope, this is what's happening, this is my choice.
Speaker 1:I can choose how I want to respond, absolutely I don't know whether you read Chimp Paradox by Professor Steve Peters. His whole thing is about sort of chimp human and this computer which is, which is very much this like your chimp, is your amygdala, is your survival brain. It likes to take control, it's stronger. How do you give your human space and time to actually go? No, it's cool, I've got this. I want. I want to choose how I respond. You don't hijack me right now. You don't protect me, that's right. Yeah, I haven't protect me.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, I haven't read that book, but what you're saying sounds exactly in line with what I've learned or tried to practice.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. Both of these trends, it feels like for you there's been. This trend towards how you as a person can develop has then led to a lot of business benefit. Was that why you went to the first place, or do you think that was just just what happened?
Speaker 2:That's a really good question. Um, I'm naturally a driven and very competitive person. Right, I want to win, I want to be successful and all of these things. But what I found for, at least for me, is that I also get a lot of value and I feel like I'm in the right place as how I am performing and how I'm performing as a leader for my team.
Speaker 2:If I'm in this development space, this mindset space, how do I think? Who am I as a person? Because I want to go deep. Right, I don't want to have transactional relationships with people. That doesn't fill my cup. What fills my is is seeing people grow and building something, and building something bigger than any single one person. And so when I'm in the right mindset, I am conscious and I am and I'm present with what I'm doing. I'm trying to use the tools that I've learned over the years, because it makes me a better leader and it helps generate better outcomes. We can talk dollars and cents all day long and closing new business and profit and revenue and all that stuff. All that stuff matters and it's all important, but it's transactional in nature. This stuff, to me, is what really moves the needle. It's the foundation for building a company and building a culture and a team. At least, that's how I've built it. That's what resonates with me.
Speaker 1:So much as an entrepreneur you can't control, like you get shocks, like economic shocks, you get client shocks, you get stuff like so much is out of your control that's not done to you, but it is out of your control. And ultimately, what can you control as a founder? Well, the first thing you do. It does start with you. Like you can control you, like you control how you show up, you can control how you plan, you can control your habits and I think what's really nice, what you're saying, that is like if you can be the best version of you through personal development. A, it gives you like personal satisfaction, but it does lead to better relationships. It does ultimately better business performance, but it seems to really bring you joy as well.
Speaker 2:It brings me joy and it re-centers me. And you're right about the element of control. I'm glad you brought that up, because it happens all the time. I've been talking to my team about it lately also. It's like, hey, we lost that client. That's a bummer. You know what. We're in the service business and we're going to lose clients sometimes. That's the nature.
Speaker 2:But did we do what we said we were going to do? Because there are certain things we can't control. We can't control what happens in a lot of cases with Amazon or Amazon's rules or our clients, or this happened or that happened or they just got acquired or whatever. That stuff we cannot control. At the end of the day, did we do what we said we were going to do? Did we deliver a good service? And if we did all those things, what else can we do? We can't worry about all those other things Now.
Speaker 2:It's impactful and it might hurt, but it's out of our control. So I think for me there's a few different things. When there's a moment, it could be a massive win or of sheer joy, or the inverse of that, like something catastrophic or something really bad happened. And this is in work and I would say in life in general too I've written this down and it always lands for me is saying to myself or my team that we have to remember that things are never as bad as they might seem, but they're also never as good either. So it's listen. We've got to receive information, understand what happened, but reset the meaning of it and not forget about what happened in the past and what's going to happen in the future. I think it's a way to train ourselves to keep our brains in the middle, like stay in the middle, don't get too high, don't get too low. So we've got to trust the process and keep going.
Speaker 2:Something else that's stuck with me is that if I'm at some sort of crossroads or I'm stuck on something, I always ask myself what am I afraid of? Okay, nice question. If I'm stuck, or something's not right or I'm worried about something, I have to make a decision. I don't know what to do. What am I afraid of? Because usually the trepidation or the feeling or the stuckness relates back to fear fear of something, fear of losing something or being wrong or not being good enough or whatever. And then the follow-up question to what am I afraid of? Is well, what's the best possible outcome? So I've historically gotten stuck on I'm afraid of something and I'm only thinking about the worst possible outcome. But if I can change my thoughts to what's the best possible outcome and thinking more abundantly versus scarcely, that changes and that helps me understand where I need to go.
Speaker 1:Is that something that you just do in your own head? Is that you write down? How does that normally work for you, surfacing that thought?
Speaker 2:So I write stuff down and I write post-it notes, and I got sticky notes on my computer monitor, the ones that resonate with me, and stick they stay on my monitor. So I'm staring at it right now. What am I afraid of and what is the best possible outcome as a reminder? My mentor always says this like, hey man, like get it tattooed on your forehead so you can't forget, write it on your mirror in your bathroom so you see it every single morning to remind yourself. So I need tools like that. I think everybody's brains are function, function a certain way, and we always revert to some sort of you know behavior. So I need tools, and my one of my, one of my tools is just to write it down. So I see it every single day. It forces me to think differently about the problem, and so I think it's just a shift in mindset and a shift in thought.
Speaker 1:It's almost less about a process when the artist is literally just interrupting a thought and sending your mind down a different track.
Speaker 2:I think so right. If you've got the, if you've got the foundation and the tools built, then you, you can. You've got the foundation and the tools built, then you can change your thoughts and you can change your habits and you can change your outcomes. Like, I believe in that 100%, that nothing happens to us, it happens for us, it's all a gift and we just have to choose how to respond and receive the information right. There's a good book, uh, this guy, uh, victor frankl. He's got this book, this famous book, the man's search for meaning, and he was a. He's a holocaust survivor and one of the big things he talks about is freedom of choice. I think he's a psychologist or was psychologist. Um survived the holocaust and emphasizes this concept of human freedom and the ability to choose our responses in any situation, like even in the most dire circumstances. This guy's in a concentration camp and he's observing this and his argument is like, between stimulus and response, there's like a space in between where we can exercise our freedom to choose our attitude our response and that's.
Speaker 2:That's everything to me for me.
Speaker 1:I got into mindfulness actually when I read about it from a sporting context, like how you deploy your, your best skills under pressure, when the contact. If you're walking on the road and you've got a really wide line, it's super easy to sort of walk along it. Put that same white line sort of 100 meters up in the air where the consequences you die if you fall off it suddenly deploying the basic skills of walking become very, very difficult. And I think the same thing applies in business. It's kind of like how do you train yourself so that you can deploy your skills that you have to the very best, despite the high stakes, high pressure, external stimuli?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what it is. It's hard, it is high stakes, especially as your business grows. You've got more people. You've got more customers. You've got more liability. You've got more risk. You've got more everything that can really take hold right and cause a lot of stress and pain and anxiety and unhappiness and it's not worth it. It's not. I tell my team that all the time, stressed, this is probably the yeah, I get it. I get it Right. What can you control? I can control how I show up every day. I can control how I think. I can control my mindset. I can control my level of gratitude or my presence or how I receive information. That's all I got.
Speaker 2:You know, all this stuff's always going to be happening around me and that's okay. Let's put a plan in place and let's execute, but at the end of the day, I need to have control over myself. But at the end of the day, I need to have control over myself and how I think and what I say and when I say it.
Speaker 1:Because that's my choice. In today's enlightening conversation with Dan Brownshire, we explored the profound impact of vulnerability and open communication within the workplace. Dan shared invaluable insights into the importance of creating a culture where team members feel safe to express their insecurities and challenges, helping to foster a culture of trust and understanding and also enhancing overall team performance. Dan's emphasis on the power of choice and mindset and overcoming obstacles and driving personal and professional growth provides a refreshing perspective on leadership. Personal and professional growth provides a refreshing perspective on leadership. If you're interested in hearing about more experiences and insights like Dan's, then join me every Wednesday for a new PowerPact episode. See you then.