Daniel Solomon, co-founder and CEO of OMNINGAGE, steps into the Peer Effect spotlight to share his journey of transitioning from a corporate role to the thrilling uncertainties of startup life.
With his rich experience, Daniel brings to the table deep insights on fostering innovation, scaling operations, and managing a globally dispersed team effectively.
In this episode, we explore:
For further insights and inspiration, follow Dan on LinkedIn and explore how OMNINGAGE is making waves as the world’s most innovative customer engagement platform for Amazon Connect!
More from James:
Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com
Daniel Solomon, co-founder and CEO of OMNINGAGE, steps into the Peer Effect spotlight to share his journey of transitioning from a corporate role to the thrilling uncertainties of startup life.
With his rich experience, Daniel brings to the table deep insights on fostering innovation, scaling operations, and managing a globally dispersed team effectively.
In this episode, we explore:
For further insights and inspiration, follow Dan on LinkedIn and explore how OMNINGAGE is making waves as the world’s most innovative customer engagement platform for Amazon Connect!
More from James:
Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com
Welcome to Peer Effect, the podcast that fuels you with new ideas and inspiration through interviews with founders and experts who have made it happen. I'm your host, james Johnson, and I coach Series A plus founders to take back control, propel their businesses and live a fulfilling life. In today's episode, I'm thrilled to be joined by Daniel Solomon. He is the co-founder of OmniGage after 12 years at Cisco, and his journey to launching a groundbreaking SaaS for contact centers is nothing short of inspiring. But how does one navigate the leap from a secure job to the uncertainties of a startup, and what does building and scaling a global remote team from scratch entail? Join us as Dan shares his invaluable insights on innovation, scaling and team management. Let's get started.
Speaker 2:I'll start on a bit of a journey, if you don't mind, and that's kind of my journey through the world of startup. So back in October 2019, I sat down with the person who is my business partner now, ahmad, and we looked at wanting to start up a business, right? So we'd been working in the enterprise sector for a long time and we just thought now's a good time to branch out and we wanted to find an opportunity. And we sat down and actually there was this kind of upstart company called Amazon Web Services who were going into the contact center market and they'd produced or they'd created a product called Amazon Connect and it was very young, very, very immature, but it was really exciting and it was all in the cloud and I think we felt it was going to drive change in the market. But we wanted to capture something that would allow us to produce something, produce a product, produce a bit of software. And there were gaps. There are gaps in the solution and we felt we could address that. Now, luckily for me, ahmad, my business business partner he actually is originally from Lahore in Pakistan and he had a very small team of developers and we said, right, with a minimal amount of investment, and this was the key point, I guess, was the the relative modest cost of being able to start something by offshoring some of that resource was was really interesting for me. So we repurposed those developers and we said to them right, we're going to put a bit of money in, maybe add a couple of people, and you're going to go and create a desktop, create a solution that sits on top of Amazon Connect.
Speaker 2:The other benefit of back this was October 2019, right before pandemic, by the way. Before the world changed, everything was still kind of moving to the cloud, and so, from that point of view, we didn't have to pay for any infrastructure. We didn't have to pay for anything. It was purely a cloud play. So you pay as you go, you only pay for what you use, and so for us, it was very, you know, we didn't have to invest a hell of a lot money, and the key point was was be able to bootstrap our own startup, and that's what we did. I now want to fast forward 18 months, because you know you're building a product, blah, blah, blah. We founded the business a year later and then, six months after that, we had a couple of anchor customers, and so for startups in general. There would be no startups in this world if we didn't have customers that were prepared to take a risk and go and work with someone who's new into a market. And those two customers took a risk and they're still our customers now.
Speaker 2:But that really for me suddenly identified a challenge, right as a as a, as a ceo or business owner. So for me we had to grow that team in pakistan. So, going back to that cost scenario, offshoring, it is great, but suddenly I'm having to bring you know devops, people or support people, professional services, project management, um, and we're doing it in an effective way. So in my head I went well, hold on a second. I'm going to have to manage a bigger team, approximately 5,000 miles away than I would have here locally. And you fast forward it to now, another kind of two years, and then we've got 50 people in in lahore, in the office in lahore. We've got 10 people here in the uk and we've got one in in bangkok in thailand. So suddenly I've got this as a ceo, as the person that's got to drive the strategy and drive kind of that alignment as a business. How do I manage that, that team?
Speaker 1:um, and that's, I guess you know the the challenge and so this, you've got this 61 people split between three countries. How do you build that culture?
Speaker 2:there's probably three things that I focus on. The first one goes back to kind of technology. I've, I'm, I'm a technologist at heart. I come from technology world. I was using video conferencing, uh, before really it got popular, uh, as such, um. So I came from this world where you could embrace technology, um, and, and it would help and benefit you in building relationships, because that's the biggest challenge is, how do you do that? You know, how would you done it before, before tech, before video conferencing, before you could go and switch a video on, have another party on a video and have that two-way engagement and conversation.
Speaker 2:So, for me, embracing that technology and, you know, having some simple rules around it makes a massive difference. So, for example, I will, I will always have my video on, regardless of what other people are doing, whether it's in my team or and I we work with lots of big organizations who you know. You'll see, you'll go on a video on a conference call and there's 40 people in there and no one has got their video on Right. So so for me, having my video on it's about, for my team, it's about seeing me Right. So even if their video isn't on, I don't care, it's about seeing me, seeing my surroundings, my random quirky stuff in the in the background, quirky stuff in the in the background, um, but seeing me, who I am, what I'm trying to do, you know. Whether it's in this confined space, it's still something that I'm trying to kind of, um, uh, I'm going to put forward, you know, my desire to drive this business forward, and it comes across a lot more effectively on video. So that's, that's a simple thing. Right, use the technology, use, you know, switch your video on, have those conversations, make sure, you know, encourage people to do the same. So that's one thing.
Speaker 2:The second thing is everyone says, as a startup business, you know, create a team that you trust around you. You know, you're only as good as your team and stuff like that. So, so, from from a point of view in Pakistan, it for me, you know, and my business partners, quite fortunate, he's, he understands the culture, he's from that, you know, that country, right, but, but he's not, you know, he's not the kind of the person that's driving that business forward. He's a technologist, right, he's, he's the CTO, he needs to go and drive that. So, for me, I needed to go right, how do I impart what our vision is in an effective way. So what we've done within that team in Pakistan is we've evolved it to have not necessarily a management layer, but some advocates and some people whether they're team leaders or whatever you want to call them, but some people who I can rely on. That I know that as we grow, they're going to go and impart that same message that we're trying to do from here, from the UK, into the team as that team expands. And what fascinates me is that people are people, right, it doesn't matter what background, where you've come from, they all have their own drives and their own desires. So for me, understanding what that is within that core team and then getting them to share that vision is really important. So, so that.
Speaker 2:So that was the kind of next phase of it is. Don't, you know, don't go scattergun actually kind of build that core team that's going to drive it and, um, it's been up and down. We're not perfect in any way. You know, working in a startup is hard, right, and so we have to make changes and it's important to make those changes. But I think we're starting to have that core team there, and then the final bit for us as a business is then right, you can't have everyone remote. That's the reality. You can have a lot of people remote, but you have to build your core team. So that's where we now have 10 people in the uk and these are key roles that, again, are evangelizing and striving the message of our business and are driven to succeed and and make this business work, and they're feeding into the team, the remote team, and driving them forward in the right way.
Speaker 2:I'm not trying to create management layer on management layer, but what I'm trying to impart is this kind of desire to succeed Right and then sharing that in the right way. Back to that remote team. At first it was hard, it was really hard, really really hard to do Because, again, you know, you, you don't know, really know anyone, uh, and you I've never met them. I've you know, I'm a ceo that's met a sixth of my team. Reality, you know, probably pandemic and covid helps help that, because you know there wasn't even an opportunity to do things like that for quite a while. Um, and eventually I will meet them, but I don't think I've needed to because of technology, because you get the right people around you, you build those core teams, whether it's locally to you and then out there, and make sure it's consistent, I think are the key things. So that's how we've addressed that challenge.
Speaker 1:One of the things you said, there is the idea that you've referred to to as evangelists more than managers. So are some of your evangelists not managers?
Speaker 2:uh, yeah, I mean, they are managers, right. So we have structure within the team in pakistan and, of course, we have roles and functions. So the head of project management is in the UK and is aligned to kind of key people within the project management team in Pakistan. So, yes, they are managers, but I'm trying to instill this thought of we're all going in that one direction, right? So, actually, if you share that kind of desire to succeed together, I think you know, and, of course, have tough conversations, which you would do anyway so we're trying to build a team that is really evangelizing our story, because that will come across within our customers and how we move forward and how we attract new clients. Right is saying we're all on this journey. In fact, you know, the journey to cloud, the journey to adopting some of these more innovative solutions is a journey, right? So we've all got to go on that together.
Speaker 1:But does that mean all of your managers are in the UK? What's going on in Pakistan locally?
Speaker 2:yeah to, to connect to the culture yeah, and so, so, locally, you've got team leaders, you know, so we've I'll probably describe it as in the UK we've got this kind of uh, leadership team, right, this team, that kind of we're collectively driving it forward. And then you've got you've got team managers and leaders within the operation within pakistan that then, have, you know, disseminate that information out to the wider team. So we're having to to create that structure. Um, and then it's for me to go, and you know, as the ceo, right, you're getting your hands dirty, right, you're doing everything, and and so does my business. You know, as the CEO, right, you're getting your hands dirty, right, you're doing everything, and and so does my business. You know my business partners also, we just get our hands dirty and we go and do stuff.
Speaker 2:But now, as we grow, we need to make sure there is that structure. So there's HR manager there, there's uh, there's an office manager, there's people that are looking at it from a wider point of view. But what we've had to do is try and bring the right people into those key roles. Um, that that get the where we want to go. Right, that's a bit, and I want everyone to get where we want to go.
Speaker 2:But you know, the reality is that you're going to have a developer and that developer is going to focus in on what they do and they're going to try to do as good a job as possible, but then you've got kind of the those kind of leaders you know within that team. So, a leader on a leader right, I want to create a team of leaders, people that are empowered to go and go and make decisions and drive the business forward in the right way. Yeah, you have to have an element of structure definitely I mean, having talked through that experience, what?
Speaker 1:what is to other founders? What's that you have to give, like one thing from that. There you go I've. I would do this one thing really well, what would it be?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think, uh, for me, um, uh, aside from the technology conversation, which is is more of something you know, that I've just kind of understood and realized, I think it's building that team that you trust around you. Right, and I'm guilty of it you can quickly get bogged down in the detail, right, without having people around you that you can trust and go. You know what I trust, that you can trust and go. You know what I trust, that you understand where we're trying to go and and I'm going to let you do that, right, and that's probably the bit that.
Speaker 2:I would kind of say don't, as I and again you know I'm not sitting here going. I've built 20 businesses and blah, blah blah. But from my experience in the last three or four years that that don't you know build, build a core team around you quickly, right it it. You know they're not the cheapest people to bring on, but they are the right people and and and do it at the right time, I think is key I think that's the big difference being a founder and being a ceo.
Speaker 1:I think when you move into that second stage, to move into that second stage, you need to have a team around you and you need to learn to make things happen through other people rather than getting things done yourself exactly, exactly and and you know that's only that only gets more complicated, right?
Speaker 2:so the the better that structure is, the the more you trust that to work, the the the more likely you're going to be successful. And yeah, that whole transition from the founder that startup, that first year, I see it's, it's a great, I, I loved it. I love that first 18 months, you know winning your first customer, but you're just doing everything right and you're battling away and everything's brilliant. And then it's hard, right, that's the reality, a bit like having kids. It's hard, don't tell anyone, don't allow anyone to tell you anything otherwise other than it's hard, right, it's hard getting from that kind of first customer to multiple customers to then, you know, having a large customer working with you. Uh, it's, it's. It's definitely a tough journey but it's very rewarding at the same time as being tough, and every time you think you've cracked it, the whole game changes absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean that and that's standard, right. You go to any any session where you speak to another founder and you go God damn, you know what the hell just happened, you know it's got, but then you just pick yourself up and then you carry on to the next one and you just keep going right, keep going until you get to that end game, or you know whatever moment in time that is, you know whatever your strategy is and you get the rewards from there.
Speaker 2:That's kind of a certain insight that's come from stuff you've been doing, what's something you would share with other founders that's interested you recently yeah, so, uh, you know, again, I should really go down the social media or, uh, dragon's den, whatever, but actually I'm gonna go to probably someone who was doing business 50 years ago, so, um. So I've read recently read a book, um, and it's called shoe dog and it's it's a memoir written by phil knight. Probably most people know who phil nye is, but he founded nike and it is really a hugely insightful view of of that startup world. So what we just described, he he puts on paper really eloquently across multiple years and it's it. It really is a fascinating read in terms of kind of inspirational and, you know, dogged determination. Then you're not going to see someone more determined than Phil in terms of what he did, and I probably took three things out of that thing. The first thing is that kind of hell-bent view of of growing his business right and and determination in driving that forward. The conversations I mean in those days it was conversations with bank managers rather than investors and loan investment tools that you use now, you know, to get funding, blah, blah, blah. Then it was I've got to go and speak to my bank manager and for me that you know constant battle, that he had to go, but, but he, he put it on himself, right, and, like I say, I'm not advocating this because books are written by the winners Right, and there's, you know, we all know, 90 percent of startups, unfortunately, we don't get past the first year. But you know, he said every year he, his target was to double the business the following year. Right, so, 100k, I'm going to do 200K. A million, I'm going to do two million. Five million, I'm going to do 10 million, you know, and this kind of determination to move and the hours that that he worked was incredible. So, so that was amazing.
Speaker 2:That the second point was his, uh, going back to the team. Right, it's building a team that you trust around you, and you could see that. Right, the people that he brought on were also fascinated about trainers. Right, they, they're all runners, right, they, and that's how they started. But you know, obviously they transfer nike transformed that kind of industry, right, but from that point of view, uh, they were all just fans of running, right, and they wanted those trainers to be the best trains they could possibly be, even though you know, they came from japan, right, so this was, it was pretty much an import business, right, but the amount of information that got passed and how they built, created those trainers, was, was, was invaluable, and that team was the one that did it. So, even though he didn't talk about it as a team, you could see that he was building that around around himself. Right, that the slight minded people, some very different people to him, because he knew that he had a certain skill set and he needed people with other skill sets, some ultra amazing salespeople, for example.
Speaker 2:The final thing is his focus on competition. So I it's funny I speak to people like oh, you know, you're in the same industry as your competitors, we should all be kind of happy together. Well, you know, phil had a very different viewpoint and that was a laser focus on what his competition was doing, and he was going into a market that was dominated by people like Adidas and others. Um, and so, you know, from his point of view is how can I beat Adidas? How can I, how can I really compete against them and drive it forward? It's a dogged determination to go. I'm going to be. I'm going to be better than my competition. So I've probably told the whole story of the book, but I thoroughly recommend reading it. It's, it's a great read. As I said, it's not a textbook in any way, but it's. It's written really well and and and very inspiring, I think, for anyone who's going on a similar journey to what I am it's quite interesting.
Speaker 1:Some ways there are parallels between your business and nike in terms of it sounds like you're going there is a core team who do like nike, essentially a marketing company. Yep, they outsource all the production of it and it sounds like in a way, that's sort of where you've got a core team without sourcing the production as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the difference is, I mean, we're creating a product, right, it's a software product, but it's still a product and it still needs to have value to your client. And our clients are businesses, not any customers with, you know, putting shoes on their, on their feet, but the absolutely, it's, it's almost identical in terms of that, that concept of, uh, you know, in effect, outsourcing that, that that function, but, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's not that dissimilar given that you put this as the development of this core management team, as like a real driver of your success, do you think having an external competitor, a clearly labeled external competitor, helps with that team cohesion?
Speaker 1:a hundred percent yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:It brings people together right internally, when you're, when you've got that focus and go, you know, and and in my industry there's there's not hundreds of competitors, there's some key ones, and hopefully we're, hopefully we're seen by the ones that we look at as in the same way. Right, I want it. That that competition is healthy, right, um so, but within the team, within that that team, both in pakistan, here, knowing who your competitors are, what they're doing and how you compete against them is really important.
Speaker 1:How do you then get the balance between being competitor aware and doing your own thing but doing it better than them and competitor tunnel visioned, where you end up just trying to do what they're doing just just a bit better?
Speaker 2:no, yeah. So I I think, um, how we look at our product development isn't just oh, what are what's our competitor doing?
Speaker 2:let's do the same because actually we we're trying to take a base concept or vision of what your product is, and for us it's to create the best experience we possibly can for an agent and a supervisor in a contact center world. Right, fundamentally, we want the best experience them to have the tools in front of them in a really nice, easy to use environment that encourages them to go and be as good as they possibly can be in front of their clients, and so that concept that's our, that's unique to us, right?
Speaker 2:so so first it's about having that vision right. Then it's about aligning your stories to that vision and always have that in the back of your mind. And then third is keep an eye on the competition and have that focus. So that's the healthy competition, competitive focus that I want within the team.
Speaker 1:So that's very nice. It's kind of like being very clear what you stand for. Build your stories around that and then check in on your competitors Exactly. I think it's a very nice. It's kind of like being very clear what you stand for, build your stories around that and then check in on your competitors Exactly. I think it's something that we all say we ought to do, this idea of check on our competitors. I'm just curious how you practically go about doing that.
Speaker 2:So if you look at my competitors so when I mean there's two, actual two competitors, right, there's competitors of Amazon, amazon Connect as a product that we sit on, and then there's competitors of, of created similar software to us that sit on Amazon Connect. So for those competitors actually, just you know, having an engagement with AWS themselves, amazon, and they're not going to tell you stuff, but you can certainly identify things that are happening right within the market talk targeting, who are they speaking to, you know, and stuff like that. But LinkedIn, you know which company doesn't market the ass out of LinkedIn these days, right? So it's not too hard to go and see what the focus is. I never say just spend your life looking at linkedin and seeing what our competitors are talking about, but have an eye on it and go oh, hold on, you know, that's that, that's something we need to think about, or whatever, and then bring it, bring that out into the, into the wider team to have a discussion about so it's part of everyone's kind of basic job.
Speaker 1:Responsibility is keep an eye on competitors. It's not, there's not. There's not like a dedicated person towards doing.
Speaker 2:It was not sort of the blue team, red team concept that some, some companies, yeah you know again, I think you said it you know you can get kind of swallowed up by just looking at your competition and then trying to be one step ahead of them. For us, the market we're in is pretty complicated, so the direction that one competitor will go could be vastly different to you. So trying to be one step ahead of that is not worth doing right.
Speaker 2:You just need to keep an eye and make sure that your vision is still aligned to what you want to do. But someone's not kind of nipping in kind of behind you and going. Actually, you know, don't want to go there, you want, you want to do this.
Speaker 1:So keeping an eye is important, I think so it's kind of, if you're driving, it's checking your mirrors occasionally, rather than kind of turning your head around and just just just driving forward and staring at the back of the car yeah, check your mirrors.
Speaker 2:Enough that you're going to pass your driving test, but not, uh. But, yeah, not look back. And then you know, not see what's coming up coming in front of you crash, yeah amazing, okay.
Speaker 1:Well, let's let's move on to the third question then. So for that, so far we've really focused on sort of this building of the team, importance like sort of this competitor identification and just sense check to help, to help your team with an identity, what's, what's sort of a practical tip or tool that you've you would share with other founders that really sort of helps you make things happen yeah, I mean as someone who has to manage a team across the world remotely, then tools like Microsoft Teams or insert another provider, whether it's Slack or WebEx or whoever, or Zoom, that tool for me is is critically important.
Speaker 2:But actually the bit that you know, maybe some people lose sight of and I, I'm guilty of it sometimes is how you use that tool efficiently, right? So for me, you know, we're trying to instill in this team the idea, or certainly within the leadership team and the managers, to go, right, if we're going to create a team space, then that, you know, don't just put names in it. Think about what that team, that space, is going to be used for, right? So is it a specific project? Is it?
Speaker 2:Uh, you know your specific client and a project within that client? You know, try and be as specific as you possibly can. Invite the right people in then in there and then be disciplined to make sure that that is where information is shared, right? And and I'm I'm the first to pick up on someone posting something that is not relevant to that space, and the bit that you don't want to do is then just carry on the conversation, because then it gets lost in this mess of other things, right. So if that happens, you know I'll call it out, I'll go right, that's the wrong place.
Speaker 1:Repost this in the place where that should be, and so you know we start that conversation there essentially, I think you say it's, you say it's a boring answer, but it's sort of people who've kind of who are not in their 20s. I think we all, a lot of us, had like training on like how to be efficient in email, because we realized that email was an absolute time killer. And actually how you do it, like how often you should respond, how you write them, how you store them, what you'd like, and actually you can save yourself so much time for doing it.
Speaker 1:Oh, I hate it, but I think there's not been a I hate getting a draft, but I don't think we've had the same level of rigor apply to what is sort of replacing or adding onto it, which is collaboration software. So I think learning how to use these whether it's Teams, whether it's Slack, whatever it is they can become as big a problem as email was, and you can spend your whole day being an email monkey and I imagine you could spend your whole day being a slack monkey if you wanted to, or team monkey, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think this idea of what can how do you use it more effectively and efficiently is critical absolutely yeah, and I've used it in organizations, but I think it's only really recent that it's become so prolific in in its usage, right, that this is where it's coming out now. I haven't worked for a large enterprise for a while now, so I don't know what it's like, but even just in my small team right 60 people it can become very unmanageable very quickly, right. So I couldn't even imagine what that'd be like with thousands of people. So for me, as we grow, I think I want to instill this view that you know, just be effective with the usage of that and and make sure you have some structure, because it's it, it can. It's going to get very messy very quickly if you don't one thing I always want to talk about email stuff.
Speaker 1:I always like people to minimize the number of cc's. They did certainly big companies. You get a culture of like 20 people cc'd an email and it's like this this you come back to your desk, you've got 100 emails, none of which are relevant yeah yeah, I imagine.
Speaker 1:I sort of imagine teams and slack in a big company being that on steroids kind of like. It's just like having a hundred person cc'd in every message. Yeah, I've got coaching clients, who one have said to me very proudly when we first started working together oh, we've got a culture of instant response yeah I was like you have basically persuaded your whole team to do no work and just fixate on yeah answering slack. I mean, big company, 100 people.
Speaker 2:You've basically sort of mentally primed 100 people not to focus yeah, exactly, you just get sucked in and then you're, then you're done, right, and uh, you, you know I've our head of project management is. Is you know, as a project manager, how you're managing projects? Would you allow a project to be run through a medium, a single medium, whether that's email or or teams? No, you wouldn't right, because it would fail, the project would fail. You know you need to have that team coordinated and collaborating together. Um, and you need to. You know that that medium of communication needs to be the right one at the right time. So you know she would be the first to say I'm not going to set up an email or teams with 20 people. We're going to get a call and we're going to deal with this, right, if it's important, right, and you're going to go and do that.
Speaker 2:So why would you then create a culture where you're going exactly like you said, what you know, so you have to instantly reply to that. It might be a waste of time. Why would you? Why would you do that? Yeah, I agree, don't? That's not the culture now grind, maybe some people fixate a bit, but you, you have to have that control as well, individually, but also kind of instill that within your, your team as well and, if I'm hearing you correctly, the big, a big part of using teams or similar platforms properly is to is how you set it up.
Speaker 1:Be very mindful and deliberate about what spaces you create, who's in them, what the purpose is. And then part of your role as a senior person is to police for lack of a better word that that actually is kept to, and if you can do those things, you're going to cut off not all, all of the issues, but it's. It's a.
Speaker 2:It's the best way to help for success exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, and my team be listening to this go with binomies, perfect in that, but. But that's what we strive to do and you know it's important to have that kind of that structure in mind, definitely. And one more, one more tool I was going to say, and I've noticed as a startup, as a founder, as a CEO, stress levels kind of go from here to there because you're thinking about lots of things. So my, my generic, non-labeled spin bike that everyone has and and I won't name, uh, it's really really important as well. The option for me to to do something in like 30 minutes or 40 minutes and that's focused, it's intense enough that but fits into my day, is really important. You know, make sure that you are having some time for yourself and you're looking at your health and fitness and using those generic bikes to to, you know, get on your bike and ride, kind of thing. But, um, I do advocate that very much.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's my second gadget that may or may not rhyme with melatonin amazing. Well, dan, thank you so much for that, for sharing the insight. I think it's so valuable to sort of hear from other founders what's working for them. It saves reading and listening to loads of stuff, just getting the real nuggets. So I really appreciate you taking the time. You're very welcome. Thank you for having me navigating the journey to a flourishing tech startup. Dan's story is a blueprint for innovation, scaling, scaling and cultivating a team culture that transcends geographical boundaries. I'm your host, james Johnson, reminding you that every founder journey is filled with challenges, but it's the shared experiences and wisdom, like Dan's, that light our paths forward. Join us this coming Wednesday for another enlightening conversation. In the meantime, continue to innovate, inspire and make it happen. Cheers.